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jacobtowne
09-30-2005, 09:37 AM
Foreign-Made Sidearms Used by German Forces During WWII

With Known Fremdgeräte (Foreign Equipment) Numbers and Model Designations

During the war, the German army captured huge amounts of weapons from their enemies. Most types were tested by the Heereswaffenamt(Army Ordnance Department). After testing, each type was assigned a number, followed by the first letter of the country of origin.
This list shows the status of most captured weapons up to 1943. (Note that not all weapons entered service in the Wehrmacht.)

Since this is a work in progress, contributions from members are welcome.


<center>I. NUMERICALLY</center>
Revolver 610 (n) Ex Norwegian M/1893 Nagant caliber 7.5mm
Revolver 612 (g) Greek Nagant 1895 7.62mm
Revolver 612 (p) (ex Polish M95 Nagant revolver) caliber 7.62mm
Revolver 612 (r) (ex Russian M95 Nagant revolver) caliber 7.62mm
Revolver 613 (g) Greek Nagant 1912 7.62mm
Pistole 615 (r) (ex Russian TT30/33) caliber 7.62x25mm
Pistole 620 (b) FN 1900
Pistole 621(b) - Belgian 1910 cal. 7.65
Pistole 622 (b) Belgian contract Colt Pocket pistol, Cal 32acp
Pistole 622(b) - Belgian 1903 cal. 9mm Browning Long
Pistole 623 (f) (ex French pistolet Star) caliber 7.65mm
Pistole 624 (f) (ex French pistolet Ruby) caliber 7.65mm
Pistole 625 (f) (ex French Mle. 35 A) caliber 7.65mm Longue
Pistole 626 (b) (ex Belgian Mle. 10/22) caliber 7.65mm
Pistole 626 (d) Danish Browning M1922 7.65mm
Pistole 626 (h)(ex Belgian FN 10/22) Pistool M25 No. 1 cal. 7.65mm
Revolver 634 (f) (ex "Revolver Eibar") Spanish copy of S&W M&P 8mm
Revolver 635 (f) Spanish made copy of S&W 8mm
Revolver 636 (f) French contract, Spanish copy of Colt revolver 8mm
Revolver 637 (f) French 1892 Ordnance revolver 8mm
Pistole 640 (b) (ex Belgian Mle. 35 G. P.) caliber 9mm Para.
Pistole 641 (b) (ex Belgian Mle. 10/22) caliber 9mm Kurz
Pistole 641 (h)(ex Dutch FN 10/22) Pistool M25 No. 2 cal. 9mm Kurz
Pistole 641 (j) (ex Yugoslavian M10/22) caliber 9mm Kurz
Pistole 642 (f) French contract Astra 21 (400)
Revolver 643 (h) Dutch service revolver Model 1912 9.4mm
Pistole 644 (d) (ex Danish M10/21 Bergmann) caliber 9mm Bergmann/Largo
Pistole 645 (p) (ex Polish VIS wz35) cal. 9mm [also Pistole 35 (p)]
Revolver 646 (e) (ex British No. 2 Mk. I) caliber .38
Pistole 647 (f) Ex Pistolet Automatic Type "Colt" caliber 9mm Bayard-Largo/.38ACP (Star Model A). Acquired by German occupation forces in France.
Revolver 648 (g) Greek contract Colt Official Police .38 spl
Revolver 649 (g) Greek contract S&W M&P .38 spl
Revolver 654 (f) French 1873 and 1874 revolvers, 11mm
Revolver 655 (e) (ex British Webley No. 1 Mk. VI) caliber .45
Pistole 657(n) Ex Norwegian Colt/Browning Government M/1911, Kongsberg M/1912, and Kongsberg M/1914, all caliber 11.25mm (.45acp)
Pistole 660 (a) (ex American M1911) caliber .45
Revolver 661 (a) (ex American Colt M1917) caliber .45
Revolver 662 (a) (ex American S & W M1917) caliber .45
Pistole 670 (i) Italian Brixia (probably 1910 Glisenti too) 9mm Glisenti
Pistole 671 (i) (ex Italian MOD. 34) caliber 9mm Kurz
Beretta M1935 cal. 7.65mm
Revolver 680 (i) Italian revolver Model 1889 10.35mm

Pistole 24 (t) (ex Czechoslovakian vz. 24 and vz. 22) caliber 9mm Kurz
Pistole 27 (t) (ex Czechoslovakian vz. 27) caliber 7.65
Pistole 35 (p) (ex Polish VIS wz. 35) cal. 9mm Para. (See Pistole 645 (p) above.)
Czech vz36 cal. 6.35 pistol observed with WaA76 stamp
Pistole 37 (ex Hungarian) caliber 7.65mm
Pistole 39 (t) (ex Czechoslovakian vz. 38 ) caliber 9mm Kurz

Steyr-Pistole 34 (Steyr M1908/34) 7.65mm
Steyr-Pistole M12 (ex Austrian M1912) cal. 9mm Steyr
Steyr-Pistole M/12 umg. (ex Austrian M1912) 9mm Para.
NOTE: Austrian guns have no Fremdgeräte-numbers.

French Mle. 16 Unique Pistol 7.65mm *
French Mle. 17 Unique Pistol 7.65mm *
French Mle. D 7.65mm *
French MAB/Mle. A 6.35mm *
French MAB/Mle. C 7.65mm *

Astra 200 caliber 6.35
Astra 300 caliber 7.65 & 9mm Kurz (Observed with WaA251 stamp)
Astra 400 caliber 9mm Bergman/Largo
Astra 600 caliber 9mm Para. (Pistole Astra 600/43)(Observed - WaAD20)
Astra 900 caliber 7.63mm Mauser
Star Mod. B caliber 9mm Para.

<center>II. BY NATION OF ORIGIN</center>
AUSTRIA
Steyr-Pistole 34 (Steyr M1908/34) 7.65mm
Steyr-Pistole M12 (ex Austrian M1912) cal. 9mm Steyr
Steyr-Pistole M/12 umg. (ex Austrian M1912) 9mm Para.
NOTE: Austrian guns have no Fremdgeräte-numbers.

BELGIUM
Pistole 620 (b) FN 1900
Pistole 621(b) - Belgian 1910 cal. 9mm Kurz
Pistole 622 (b) Belgian contract Colt Pocket pistol, Cal 32acp
Pistole 622(b) - Belgian 1903 cal. 9mm Browning Long
Pistole 626 (b) (ex Belgian Mle. 10/22) caliber 7.65mm
Pistole 640 (b) (ex Belgian Mle. 35 G. P.) caliber 9mm Para.
Pistole 641 (b) (ex Belgian Mle. 10/22) caliber 9mm Kurz

CZECHOSLOVAKIA
Pistole 24 (t) (ex Czechoslovakian vz. 24 and vz. 22) caliber 9mm Kurz
Pistole 27 (t) (ex Czechoslovakian vz. 27) caliber 7.65
Czech vz36 cal. 6.35 pistol observed with WaA76 stamp
Pistole 39 (t) (ex Czechoslovakian vz. 38 ) caliber 9mm Kurz

DENMARK
Pistole 626 (d) Browning M1922 7.65mm
Pistole 644 (d) (ex M10/21 Bergmann) caliber 9mm Bergmann/Largo

FRANCE
Pistole 623 (f) (ex French pistolet Star) caliber 7.65mm
Pistole 624 (f) (ex French pistolet Ruby) caliber 7.65mm
Pistole 625 (f) (ex French Mle. 35 A) caliber 7.65mm)
Revolver 634 (f) (ex "Revolver Eibar) Spanish copy of S&W M&P 8mm
Revolver 635 (f) Spanish made copy of S&W 8mm
Revolver 636 (f) French contract, Spanish copy of Colt revolver 8mm
Revolver 637 (f) French 1892 Ordnance revolver 8mm
Pistole 642 (f) French contract Astra 21 (400)
Pistole 647 (f) Ex Pistolet Automatic Type "Colt" caliber 9mm Bayard-Largo/.38ACP (Star Model A). Acquired by German occupation forces in France.
Revolver 654 (f) French 1873 and 1874 revolvers, 11mm
French Mle. 16 Unique Pistol 7.65mm *
French Mle. 17 Unique Pistol 7.65mm *
French Mle. D 7.65mm *
French MAB/Mle. A 6.35mm *
French MAB/Mle. C 7.65mm *

GREAT BRITAIN
Revolver 646 (e) (ex British No. 2 Mk. I) caliber .38
Revolver 655 (e) (ex British Webley No. 1 Mk. VI) caliber .45

GREECE
Revolver 612 (g) Greek Nagant 1895 7.62mm
Revolver 613 (g) Greek Nagant 1912 7.62mm
Revolver 648 (g) Greek contract Colt Official Police .38 spl
Revolver 649 (g) Greek contract S&W M&P .38 spl

HUNGARY
Pistole 37 (ex Hungarian) caliber 7.65mm

ITALY
Pistole 670 (i) Italian Brixia (probably 1910 Glisenti too) 9mm Glisenti
Pistole 671 (i) (ex Italian MOD. 34) calibers 9mm Kurz
Beretta M1935 cal. 7.65mm
Revolver 680 (i) Italian revolver Model 1889 10.35mm

NETHERLANDS
P626 (h)(ex Dutch FN 10/22) Pistool M25 No. 1 cal. 7.65mm
P641 (h)(ex Dutch FN 10/22) Pistool M25 No. 2 cal. 9mm Kurz
Revolver 643 (h) Dutch service revolver Model 1912 9.4mm

NORWAY
Revolver 610 (n) Ex Norwegian M/1893 Nagant caliber 7.5mm
Pistole 657(n) Ex Norwegian Colt/Browning Government M/1911, Kongsberg M/1912, and Kongsberg M/1914, all caliber 11.25mm (.45acp)


POLAND
Revolver 612 (p) (ex Polish M95 Nagant revolver) caliber 7.62mm
Pistole 645 (p) (ex Polish VIS wz35) cal. 9mm [also Pistole 35 (p)]

SOVIET UNION
Revolver 612 (r) (ex Russian M95 Nagant revolver) caliber 7.62mm
Pistole 615 (r) (ex Russian TT30/33) caliber 7.62x25mm

SPAIN
Astra 200 caliber 6.35
Astra 300 caliber 7.65 & 9mm Kurz (Observed with WaA251 stamp)
Astra 400 caliber 9mm Bergman/Largo
Astra 600 caliber 9mm Para. (Pistole Astra 600/43)(Observed - WaAD20)
Astra 900 caliber 7.63mm Mauser
Star Mod. B caliber 9mm Para.

UNITED STATES
Pistole 660 (a) (ex American M1911) caliber .45
Revolver 661 (a) (ex American Colt M1917) caliber .45
Revolver 662 (a) (ex American S & W M1917) caliber .45

YUGOSLAVIA
Pistole 641 (j) (ex Yugoslavian M10/22) caliber 9mm Kurz

* Produced in Occupied France for the Wehrmacht. German designation not known.

6.35mm - .25 Auto/ACP
7.65mm - .32 Auto/ACP
9mm Kurz - .380 Auto

JT

Dgiz
09-30-2005, 10:00 AM
JT,
Great list. My two cents. Model 16 and 17-Pistols, you have revolvers-typo. TT30 (and TT33). I know some of these in Lt Col Whittington's book weren't used, but there is a great list on Page 171-172 of Volume 2.
Dean

jacobtowne
09-30-2005, 02:37 PM
Dean:
Right. That's the way I found the list. I'll change it. The 16 and 17 were M.A.P. Uniques, correct?
JT

Dgiz
09-30-2005, 02:45 PM
Hi JT,
The Uniques are listed as the MAPF Unique 17 or Unique 16 or the Kriegsmodell. Some just say the Unique M17 Etc.
I like the list!
Dean

Mark
09-30-2005, 04:18 PM
The Beretta 1935 was left off the list, 7.65mm. They were used by German forces in occupied Italy, some are marked WaA162.

Mark

jacobtowne
09-30-2005, 05:05 PM
If you give me the German (P) designation, I'll add it to the list.
JT

TexasVet
09-30-2005, 10:39 PM
Pistole Modell 671(i) - Italian Beretta 1934 [u]& 1935</u>
The only instance that I know of that two models, though varying only by caliber, were issued under one number.
Also:
Pistole Modell 621(b) - Belgian 1910
Pistole Modell 622(b) - Belgian 1903

Please remember that the fremdengerate list was not just a list of German issued foreign equipment, it was a list of as much foreign equipment as the meticulous Germans could compile. Nearly every issue weapon in the world had a number, including the American 18 inch Panama Canal coastal guns!
I'm trying to find the number for the Belgian Armand Gavage (approx 2000 built after occupation by Germany), if anyone knows! I have never found it on any information about the fremdengerate list, so they may have been all private purchase.
Tom

jacobtowne
10-01-2005, 08:10 AM
Good morning. Thanks. I added the new information.
JT

atoms
10-01-2005, 10:33 AM
Please add the spanish guns, e.g. Astra 200, 300, 400 and 600 and Star Mod. B.

They have no "Fremdgeräte" No. because they were purchased. Only captured (or with the possibility of beeing captured) guns had such a number.

There is no P 37 (u), that's nonsence, because at the time of purchase Hungary was an ally of Germany.

The P 27(without the (t)) is in caliber .32.

I think, you left the Mauser HSc.

Shall I go on?????

André

jacobtowne
10-01-2005, 11:01 AM
André:
Good point about the Mauser. For the purposes of this exercise, I have decided to delete the German/Austrian sidearms listed by the original author, since this forum is for non-German made guns.
JT
I also added the cal. .32 vz27.
JT

atoms
10-01-2005, 11:16 AM
jacobtowne:

IMHO there was no vz. 27 in 9 mm short, have you ever seen one?

André

jacobtowne
10-01-2005, 12:03 PM
quote:Originally posted by atoms

jacobtowne:

IMHO there was no vz. 27 in 9 mm short, have you ever seen one?

André



I've never seen such a pistol, nor have I heard of it, nor can I find references to it in my books. So out it goes. Thank you.
JT

TexasVet
10-01-2005, 11:29 PM
"There is no P 37 (u)" Well, it's on the official German list as such. Ally or not, Hungary was a foreign country, and that is what the list covers.

Darwin
10-02-2005, 02:59 AM
This would make a nice sticky post.

bohemian
10-02-2005, 10:15 AM
What did the Germans call the Steyr Hahn when it was in German service?

jacobtowne
10-02-2005, 10:17 AM
Good question. They converted some to 9mm Para., didn't they?
JT

jacobtowne
10-02-2005, 10:26 AM
Another question about the Astras. Atoms suggested the Astra 200, which in my book is listed as a cal. .25 pocket pistol. Should this be included?
JT

Frank
10-02-2005, 03:52 PM
JT, the Astra 300 was made in both 7.65mm and 9mm Kurz. The 9mm Kurz were Waffenamt with WaA251, the 7.65mm had no Waffenamt Marks. German 7.65mm are identified by serial number.

This as an absolutely great list!! Thanks a bunch!

Edward Tinker
10-02-2005, 05:14 PM
quote:Originally posted by Darwin

This would make a nice sticky post.
Sorry I was slow, of course it should be a sticky, did so. Just remind me if I forget. :)

Ed

atoms
10-03-2005, 04:58 AM
Back again:

Steyr Hahn: The official name according to a 1944 police manual was either Steyr-Pistole M 12 for the version in 9 mm Steyr or Steyr.Pistole M/12 umg. for the version in 9 mm Luger.
"ung." is the abbreviation of "umgeändert" just meaning "converted".

Italian Beretta: The Fremdgeräte number P 671(i) applies only to the version M 34 in 9 mm short according to the "Liste der Fremdgeräte D 50/1". The version in 7,65 mm has no Fremdgeräte number!

Please include all the dutch guns, e.g. P 626 (h) - dutch M 25 No. 1 - FN 10/22 7,65 mm and P 641 (h) - dutch M 25 No. 2 - FN 10/22 9 mm short.

André

André

jacobtowne
10-03-2005, 10:28 AM
André:
Once again, thank you for the contribution.
Is the "Liste Der Fremdgeräte" available online?
JT

atoms
10-03-2005, 10:40 AM
quote:Originally posted by jacobtowne

André:
Once again, thank you for the contribution.
Is the "Liste Der Fremdgeräte" available online?
JTJT:

I don't think so, it was reprinted in the late 80's, but I don't know if it is still available. The right name is "Kennblätter fremden Geräts", sorry for stating the wrong name.

André

Dgiz
10-06-2005, 03:30 PM
JT,
Isn't the cal of the Belgian 1903, 9mm Browning Long?
Dean

jacobtowne
10-06-2005, 05:03 PM
Hi Dean:
I just checked my old copy of Hogg's Pistols of the Worldand 9mm Browning Long it is. He says that there was a report that some were made for German Ordnance in WWI in .380, but that had not been verified at the time of writing (1970s).
Thank you for the contribution.
JT

Dgiz
10-07-2005, 11:52 AM
Here are a couple of questions and additions. Might as well list them all!
Is there no designation for the Norway Nagant? (They have the Polish and Russian ones) Oooopps! Found it, 610 (n).
What is the CZ 22 number?
Why do they list Belgian non-military accepted pistols like the 1922s (32 and 380) and the 1903. Did they hope to get them at the factory? Was there that many military private purchase that they thought they would encounter a lot of them?
The Steyr 1908/34 is not listed. Did the Nazi police get some of them?
620 (b) FN 1900
622 (b) Belgian contract Colt Pocket pistol, Cal 32acp
626 (d) Danish 1922 32 acp
642 (f) French contract Astra 21 (400)
647 (f) French contract Star B 32acp
670 (i) Italian Brixia (probably 1910 Glisenti too) 9mm Glisenti
634 (f) French revolver Spanish made copy of S&W M&P 8mm
635 (f) Listed same as above?
636 (f) French contract, Spanish copy of Colt revolver 8mm
637 (f) French 1892 Ordnance revolver 8mm
654 (f) French 1873 or 1874 revolvers, 11mm
612 (g) Greek Nagant 1895 7.62mm
613 (g) Greek Nagant 1812 7.62mm
648 (g) Greek contract Colt Official Police .38 spl
649 (g) Greek contract S&W M&P .38 spl
643 (h) Dutch service revolver Model 1912 9.4mm
680 (i) Italian revolver Model 1889 10.35mm
The British ones include the Enfield products too?
These are from Lt Col Whittington's Vol 2.

Dean

Dgiz
10-07-2005, 12:21 PM
Astra 900.
The list appears to be a list of weapons that may be "encountered" in the field. Not necessarily captured. Just thinking about the Hungarian ones and the Italian ones.
Dean

jacobtowne
10-07-2005, 02:00 PM
Dean:
Once again, thanks for the help - great list you provided.
I plugged them all in except:
1. Steyr 1908/34. How would you list this?
2. The Greek Nagant revolvers. There are two Nagants listed, one is 1812. Typo?

JT

Dgiz
10-07-2005, 02:22 PM
Sorry, yep, typo its 1912.
I am not sure about the the Steyr 1908/34. I don't know much about Police pistols. I just remember reading that some were absorbed into the police system? Sorry I can't provide more info on it.
Dean

Dgiz
10-07-2005, 02:29 PM
I looked them up again. 634 (f) states French revolver, Spanish copy of S&W type revolver made by "La Industrial Orbea, Eibar" 8mm
635 (f) French revolver, Spanish copy of S&W type revolver, 8mm
Just to fill in the blanks.
Dean

Dgiz
10-07-2005, 02:38 PM
Its funny that they start at 610 after P 39(t) and end about 680. Are the blanks pistols/revolvers or other equipment? OK, someone has the complete list...where are you?
Dean

jacobtowne
10-07-2005, 02:48 PM
What's a M1912 Nagant? I could find no references to this in my books.
JT

Dgiz
10-07-2005, 03:18 PM
A lot of countries use the year of adoption? I have seen Nagants listed as 1892, 1883, 1893, 1887. Just a guess...I will keep digging.
Dean

jacobtowne
10-07-2005, 03:27 PM
"What is the CZ 22 number? "

The original list gave the same fremdgerät number as the vz24.
JT

Dgiz
10-08-2005, 11:15 AM
Thanks JT for doing this, great list.
Here is what I could find.
Greek Nagant Model 1892 (Whittington)
Greek Nagant Model 1912 (Whittington)
Greece Nagant Model 1894 (Adamek)
Greece Revolver Nagant Md. 1898 (Muller)
So, I hope that straightens things out!
Some appear to be Gas-seals...some not. Maybe one of our members from Greece can help us.
Dean

Dgiz
10-08-2005, 11:16 AM
Thanks for the info on the CZ 22. Dean

jacobtowne
10-08-2005, 01:10 PM
I have no idea whether the info. on the vz22 is correct.
I checked Adamek, and do not know why he uses M1894. Unfortunately, he provides no attribution in his book.
So now we have four possible year/model designations. Sheesh!
As you said, Dean, perhaps someone familiar with Greek sidearms will help.
Do you think this topic would be better served un-stickied for the time being? I ask, because I usually pay little attention to stickies.
JT
I'll follow Whittington (which I don't own) for now, and change the 1895 to 1892.

atoms
10-08-2005, 05:45 PM
Steyr 1904/34: Austrian guns have no Fremdgeräte-number because Austria was united with Germany not occupied! In the semi-official "Waffen- und Schiesstechnischer Leitfaden für die Ordnungspolizei" from 1944 it is simply named "Steyr-Pistole 34"

No czech guns appear in the "Kennblätter fremden Geräts", so there is no clear Fremdgeräte-number.

André

Dgiz
10-08-2005, 07:49 PM
JT,
I must be asleep at the switch! I am sorry. Whittington is 1895! So we have one Greek revolver as the 1895 and the other as the 1912. I am sure you are thinking that this is hard enough without Dean changing stuff!
I would keep it as a sticky for now as it seems people are watching it. Don't forget the Astra 900.

Thanks Andre for the info on the Steyr-Pistole 34.
Dean

jacobtowne
10-09-2005, 10:47 AM
Well, you're not the only one who falls asleep occasionally. In my case it's known as a "senior moment."

I updated the list with the following queries:

1. Astra 900 in cal. 7.63 Mauser. Is this correct? They made some in 9mm Largo.

2. I'm confused about the Steyr 1904. Is this the same arm in 8mm that was accepted by the Austro-Hungarian Army and designated the M1907?
I find no references to a M34. Help!

JT

jacobtowne
10-09-2005, 10:51 AM
Why is the Czech vz38 listed as Pistole 39?

André:
The Czech pistol designations are simply their Czech model numbers, rather than Fremdgeräte numbers, same as Austrian pistols?

JT

Dgiz
10-09-2005, 11:18 AM
JT,
Yes, 7.63mm. The Germans only got 1,050 of the 900s during the war. Steyr 1908/34 is the Steyr 1908 updated in 1934 with some improvements (7.65mm).
Dean
Here is a photo of mine.


Download Attachment: images/icon_paperclip.gif x34.jpg (http://www.gunboards.com/luger/uploaded/dgiz/2005109112340_x34.jpg)
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jacobtowne
10-09-2005, 12:08 PM
Got it. Thanks.
JT

Heinrich
10-09-2005, 12:14 PM
JT
The complete list (nearly 400 pages as loose leaf book) can be ordered at the
publisher:
Klemens W. Künneke
Große Barlinge 10
D- 30171 Hannover
Germany

Tel. 49 511 2834905

atoms
10-09-2005, 12:20 PM
quote:Originally posted by jacobtowne

Why is the Czech vz38 listed as Pistole 39?

André:
The Czech pistol designations are simply their Czech model numbers, rather than Fremdgeräte numbers, same as Austrian pistols?

JT



It is named Pistole 39 (t) to be not confused with the German Pistole 38.
I think that all czech guns in german service are named normally withe their czech year plus the (t) for "tschechisch" .

I yesterday looked up my example of the H.Dv.g. 27 "Handbuch - Die Tschechoslowakische Wehrmacht" - the official german handbook on the czech army (secret), in it one can read that only pistols in 9 mm were used by the czech army. Were the P 27 officaly used by the czech before occupation?

jacobtowne
10-09-2005, 12:59 PM
André:
Of course. Two Model 38 pistols would not have been a good idea.

The vz27 cal. 32 pistol was never accepted by the Czech military.
Frantisek Myska of C.Z. redesigned the vz24 into a simpler blowback pistol, the vz27, which was placed on the market primarily as a commercial product for police and citizens. It was not commercially successful, with only 15,000 sold by 1938. Some Czech government agencies, such as Customs and Postal Service, bought a few.

About 453,000 were made for the German war effort during the occupation.
JT

jacobtowne
10-09-2005, 01:20 PM
Heinrich:
400 pages! That must list all the equipment, not only sidearms, correct?
JT

atoms
10-09-2005, 01:45 PM
quote:Originally posted by jacobtowne

Heinrich:
400 pages! That must list all the equipment, not only sidearms, correct?
JT



Only sidearms! Pistols, rifles, bajonetts, sabre's ... That's the D 50/1, for other equipment there were other volumes of this Wehrmacht regulation (e. g. artillery equipment, signal equipment....)

jacobtowne
10-10-2005, 05:39 PM
André:
I just noticed that the U following Pistole 37 is (ü).
Should the U be umlauted? I thought the German word for Hungary was Ungarn.

Re: Your last post. Correct me if I'm mistaken, but we may be talking about two different things. Sidearm means handgun - pistol and revolver. It does not include other small arms such as rifles, or edged weapons. The term is usually associated with the U.S. military, and perhaps the British as well.
If it is causing confusion, I'll gladly change the topic heading to handgun.
Again, thank you for the contributions.
JT

Heinrich
10-11-2005, 05:24 AM
JT,
The original publisher was the "Heereswaffenamt" Army Ordnance Administration, issue 20. March 1941, expanded until 1943.
Described are: pistols, revolvers with their holsters, rifles, submachine guns, bayonets and accessories. No other equipment.
Each gun is pictured in a small size.

jacobtowne
10-11-2005, 10:37 AM
An antiques dealer in Germany has a reprint of the "Kennblätter Fremden Geräts," Issue 1, Handwaffen, for sale at 60 Euros (I think that's what the symbol means). As Heinrich says, it was originally published by the Heerswaffenamt.



Download Attachment: images/icon_paperclip.gif fremdengerates.jpg (http://www.gunboards.com/luger/uploaded/jacobtowne/20051011103739_fremdengerates.jpg)
21.11 KB



Antique Firearms Hartmut Burger GmbH
Friedhofstr. 4
56290 Dommershausen-Sabershausen
Tel. 0049 - (0)6762/2967
Fax. 0049 - (0)6762/950285
Mobil: 0171 2121139
E-mail: [email protected]
Geschhäftsführer: Hartmut Burger
UST ID NR. DE 120 158 722
Handelsregister Amtsgericht Bad Kreuznach HRB 3541.


JT

Heinrich
10-11-2005, 12:32 PM
JT,
In this list are registered pistols, revolvers, rifles, submachine guns,
holsters and accessories and bayonets.
Each gun is pictured with a small photo.
The list has been first issued 1941 and was then expanded until 1943.

jacobtowne
10-11-2005, 02:27 PM
Heinrich:
So 'Handwaffen' or 'Handfeuerwaffen' means small arms, rather than just handguns?
JT

bohemian
10-12-2005, 07:45 AM
There are Czech military accepted Cz-27 pistols. They start appearing in 1935 and go thru 1938. These Pistols were probably Czech government pistols and not true miltary issue, but they do have the same Czech miltary acceptance marks as the Cz-24, Cz-38 and the Vz-24 rifles.

Robert

atoms
10-12-2005, 05:40 PM
quote:Originally posted by jacobtowne

André:
I just noticed that the U following Pistole 37 is (ü).
Should the U be umlauted? I thought the German word for Hungary was Ungarn.



Jacob: The correct name is, as I stated before, only Pistole 37!
They are marked P Mod. 37, nothing more!

If you have to use a letter, it will only be "u" for ungarisch (hungarian). The U Umlaut is a mistake different author copy from each other, that's the reality!

jacobtowne
10-13-2005, 10:35 AM
Atoms:
I'll delete the 'u.'
JT

jacobtowne
10-22-2005, 10:14 AM
I have come across another list of foreign equipment (taken from the original I think) at the Axis History forum. It was compiled by a member from Norway. I have deleted the rifles, carbines, anti-tank rifles, and submachine guns from the list, and will incorporate new items in the master list as time permits.

The author states: "During the war, the German army captured huge amounts of weapons from their enemies. Most types were tested by the Heereswaffenamt. After testing, each type was given a number, followed by the first letter of the country of origin.
This list shows the status of most captured weapons up to 1943 (Note that not all weapons entered service in the Wehrmacht)."

Belgium
Pistole 620(b) Ex "Pistolet 1900" - Calibre 7,65mm
Pistole 621(b) Ex "Pistolet 1910" - Calibre 7,65mm
Pistole 622(b) Ex "Pistolet Colt" - Calibre 7,65mm
Pistole 626(b) Ex "Pistolet Browning" - Calibre 7,65mm
Pistole 640(b) Ex "Pistolet Browning G.P" - Calibre 9mm
Pistole 641(b) Ex "Pistolet Browning" (Police model) - Calibre 9mm


Denmark
Pistole 626 (d) Ex "Browning" - Calibre 7,65mm
Pistole 644(d) Ex "Bergmann M1910/21" - Calibre 9mm

France
Pistole 623(f) Ex "Pistolet automatique type Star" - Calibre 7,65mm
Pistole 624(f) Ex "Pistolet automatique type Ruby" - Calibre 7,65mm
Pistole 625(f) Ex "Pistolet automatique 1935A" - Calibre 7,65mm
Revolver 634(f) Ex "Revolver Eisbar" - Calibre 8mm
Revolver 635(f) Ex "Revolver" - Calibre 8mm
Revolver 636(f) Ex "Revolver" - Calibre 8mm
Revolver 637(f) Ex "Revolver 1892" - Calibre 8mm
Pistole 642(f) Ex "Pistolet automatique type Astra Mod 1924" - Calibre 9mm
Pistole 647(f) Ex "Pistolet automatique type Colt" - Calibre 38
Revolver 654(f) Ex "Revolver 1873 et 1874" - Calibre 11mm

Greece
Revolver 612(g) Ex "Nagant 95" - Calibre 7,62mm
Revolver 613(g) Ex "Nagant 1912" - Calibre 7,62mm
Revolver 648(g) Ex "Colt" - Calibre 38
Revolver 649(g) Ex "Smith & Wesson" - Calibre 38

Holland
Pistole 626(h) Ex "Pistool M25 No1" - Calibre 7,65mm
pistole 641(h) Ex "Pistoole M25 No2" - Calibre 9mm
Revolver 643(h) Ex "Revolver M1912" - Calibre 9,1mm

Italy
Pistole 670(i) Ex "Pistola Mod 1910" - Calibre 9mm
Pistole 671(i) Ex "Pistola Mod 34" - Calibre 9mm
Revolver 680(i) Ex "M89" - Calibre 10,35mm

Norway
Revolver 610(n) Ex "Nagant M/93" - Calibre 7,5mm
Pistole 657(n) Ex "Automatisk pistol M/1914" - Calibre 45

Poland
Revolver 612(p) Ex "Rewolwer Nagan" - Calibre 7,62mm
Pistole 645(p) Ex "Pistolet Vis Vz-35" - Calibre 9mm

Soviet Union
Revolver 612(r) Ex "Revoljver obr Nagant 1895" - Calibre 7,62mm
Pistole 615(r) Ex " Tokarev 1930" - Calibre 7,62mm

United Kingdom
Revolver 646(e) Ex "No2 MK I Webley" - Calibre 38
Revolver 655(e) Ex "No1 MK VI Webley" - Calibre .455

USA
Pistole 660(a) Ex " Colt Mod 1911" - Calibre 45
Revolver 661(a) Ex " Colt Mod 1917" - Calibre 45
Revolver 662(a) Ex "Smith & Wesson Mod 1917" - Calibre 45

Yugoslavia
Pistole 641(j) Ex "M10/22 Browning" - Calibre 9mm

JT

jacobtowne
10-22-2005, 12:29 PM
Not a lot new here, actually.
We did pick up a F.G. number for the Polish wz35 and a couple of other points of interest.
JT

Heinrich
10-28-2005, 03:13 AM
JT,
There are listed handguns, rifles, bayonets, sabres. No general military
equipment.

jacobtowne
11-11-2005, 09:22 AM
Has anyone been able to resolve the following discrepancy - two French handguns with the same Fremdgeräte number?

Pistole 647 (f) French contract Star B 32acp
**Pistole 647 (f) Ex Pistolet automatique type Colt caliber .38

JT

Fritz
11-11-2005, 01:32 PM
JT,
the answer is very simple.
For the little man in Germany a pistol with such an apearance is a "Colt pistol".
On the sheet you can read: selfloading pistol system "Colt".And in the footnote:
Since the pistol is customary different companies can be producing it. This name isn't alone authoritatively as a characteristic. The model in the spoils is of Spanish origin.

Fritz

Download Attachment: images/icon_paperclip.gif Unbenannt2.jpg (http://www.gunboards.com/luger/uploaded/fritz/2005111113324_Unbenannt2.jpg)
90.26KB

jacobtowne
11-11-2005, 02:51 PM
Fritz:
Thank you for the post. Is the .32 cal. a mistake then?

Should the entry read as follows:

Pistole 647 (f) Ex Pistolet Automatic Type "Colt" caliber .38 (French contract Star B).

JT

Fritz
11-11-2005, 03:23 PM
JT,

Yes ,the cal. was a mistake and you are right with your statement.

They mean a Spanish Star but surprisingly in the cal.38

Fritz

jacobtowne
11-11-2005, 04:56 PM
Fritz:
Great. I'll change the listing, but one more question first. Does anyone know which .38 cartridge it was chambered for?
I ask, because my books show the Model A in .38 Super, and the Model B in 9mm Para.
JT

Fritz
11-13-2005, 05:05 AM
Jt,

Mea culpa, the German data sheet shows a Star A.

Sorry

Fritz

student1979
11-13-2005, 06:25 AM
Correction on the Norwegian guns:

You wrote:
"NORWAY
Revolver 610 (n) (ex Norwegian M95 Nagant) caliber 7.62
Pistole 675 [or 657?](n) (ex Norwegian M/12 and M/14 Colt Browning) caliber .45"

The correct should be:
NORWAY
Revolver 610 (n) (ex Norwegian M/1893 Nagant) caliber 7.5mm
Pistole 657(n) (ex Norwegian Colt Government M/1911, Kongsberg M/1912 and Kongsberg M/1914) all in caliber 11,25mm (.45acp)

jacobtowne
11-14-2005, 07:56 AM
student1979:
Thanks for the corrections. I'll post them now.
JT

jacobtowne
11-14-2005, 08:14 AM
Fritz:
You are correct. It's a Star Model A.

Research results, with help from members of the French Firearms Forum at gunboards, are as follows.

The Star Model A was never chambered for the .38 Super.

Some 9mm Bayard/Largo pistols, like the Astra 400s, will easily chamber the .38ACP, but other arms in 9mm Largo may not. .38ACP (Automatic) is where the .38 comes from.

In Gangarosa's book I notice that the Model B has a small frame extension at the bottom of the front grip strap. The Star pistol in the photo above does not. It is then a Model A with arched mainspring housing like the Model B.

I don't know where this French contract business arose, but it could be a confusion with the Spanish Ruby cal. 32 pistols French Ordnance purchased during WWI.

The Star A pistols were most likely brought into France by Republicans fleeing the Spanish Civil War and its aftermath.

Here is a proposed new entry to replace the two existing entries:

Pistole 647 (f) Ex Pistolet Automatic Type "Colt" caliber 9mm Bayard-Largo/.38ACP (Star Model A). Acquired by German occupation forces in France.


Comments?

JT

jacobtowne
11-14-2005, 10:01 AM
Also, I found a reference in Ezell to the Astra 600. He says in Germany it was called the Pistole Astra 600/43.
Anyone have comments on this?
JT

jacobtowne
11-18-2005, 03:41 PM
I'll post the changes as they are.
JT

jacobtowne
11-19-2005, 12:28 PM
And here comes another from Automag, newsletter of NAPCA.

It's a Czech vz36 cal. .25 double action pocket pistol with an ordnance acceptance stamp on the right front trigger guard web - WaA76 in a straight line.

Is this listed in the "Kennblätter Fremden Geräts?"

JT

atoms
11-20-2005, 07:30 AM
No czech pistol is listed in the "Kennblätter"!

Astra 600 vs Astra 600/43: According to Antaris "Astra Automatic Pistols" Astra M600 is the factory designation and "Pistole Astra 600/43" was the Wehrmacht designation.

The Astra 600/43 was a redesign of the Astra 400 in 9mm Para. Only the no.'s 1 - 10450 were delivered to the Wehrmacht in 1944, the other manufactured pistols 10451 - 41850 were re-sold to the West German Police in 1951.

Small numbers of this gun were sold to Portugal (800), Chile (450), Jordan (200), Turkey (200) and in even smaller numbers to the Philippines, Costa Rica and Egypt.

atoms

jacobtowne
11-20-2005, 09:00 AM
Should I add the pistol to the list above, since it has an ordnance acceptance stamp?
JT

jacobtowne
11-23-2005, 01:53 PM
Just came across a couple of posts concerning an Astra 300 with ordnance stamp WaA251.
JT

jacobtowne
11-26-2005, 12:11 PM
I'll add the Waffenamt stamp information on the two pistols to the list.
JT

jacobtowne
01-07-2006, 11:58 AM
Found a reference to an Astra 600 with ordnance stamp WaAD20 on Pancho's website, so have added this as an observed stamp.
JT

hanko
11-18-2007, 11:39 AM
Why do I see so much about the cz 24,27 and nothing about cz22 ?
Hank o

jacobtowne
12-18-2007, 10:51 AM
quote:Originally posted by hanko

Why do I see so much about the cz 24,27 and nothing about cz22 ?
Hank o


From the list on page 1:

CZECHOSLOVAKIA
Pistole 24 (t) (ex Czechoslovakian vz. 24 and vz. 22) caliber 9mm Kurz

This is the best information we have thus far. If you have additional information on this pistol, please post it.

Thank you,

JT

Heinrich
12-18-2007, 01:20 PM
Jacob, just seen that I have forgotten to answer.
The pages are printed only on the front side.
Means ca. 200 pages and they cover only small arms.

Sovietak474u
05-21-2013, 12:05 AM
This is such a great list. Thanks for the hard work!