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Thread: Remington Rand 1911A1 Evolution Not all are created equal.

  1. #1
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    Default Remington Rand 1911A1 Evolution Not all are created equal.

    I am gonna attempt to make a contribution on one of my favorite subjects--The Remington Rand 1911A1 pistol and it's evolution from late 1942 till mid 1945. I am not real happy with the pics but too bad of weather to give'em another try. Corrections, additions, clarifications, comments etc. are welcome.

    When I first started collecting the US 1911 and 1911A1's more than twenty years ago I thought the Remington Rands to be common and boring. Then I discovered a Type 1 in DuLite blue and I was hooked.

    Remington Rand made more M 1911A1's than all other makers in WW2, 877,751 per Charles Clawson(CC). He also says that their goal of making a high quality pistol in the most quantity and for the lowest cost was accomplished. They also contributed to improvements and manufacturing techniques.

    The pistols began coming off the line in November 1942. The first ones were the large slide logo with New York spelled out and had a Dulite blue finish. This is referred to as the Type 1 and ran from about serial number 916,405 till about 931,???(Clawson says 935,000ish). Type 2 logos came in somewhere in the 925,000 range and each type can be found in this range with no distinct cutoff. Estimates of total Type one pistols run between 10,000-15,000 depending on who you ask. As seldom encountered as they are I lean toward the 10,000 number and when I asked Mr. Clawson his guess he said 10,000 was "about right".

    All Type Ones had a DuLite Blue chemical blue which was approved by Ordnance as an acceptable substitute for Parkerizing until Parkerizing phosphate equiptment was obtained. They had checkered parts including the mainspring housing, slide stop, thumb safety, hammerand mag release. Most got early style milled triggers but some got later stamped triggers. Very early production guns can have parts provided by Colt(barrels, slide stops and grip and thumb safety) and Spring Armory field service parts(barrels and slide stops). High Standard provided barrels on many Type Ones but they were just getting geared up for production. They would provide most of the barrels for RR production and all were DuLite blue. All Type Ones apparently got early Keyes Grips lacking the reinforcement ring around the screw.

    pictures;
    1 and 2: My first Type One which spurred the interest, serial 921,543. Milled trigger.
    3: The checkered parts typical of early Rem Rands on 926,270.
    4: Milled trigger present on most Type Ones and in 3 of my 4.
    5: The No prefix on early RR's, serial 926,402. This one has the stamped trigger which soon became the standard and a cost savings.
    6 and 7: Battle damaged warrior serial number 925,088. Story is it was picked up on a Pacific island from an officier who no longer needed it and was carried by the Vet for the remainder of the war and then brought home.??
    8: 926,270 with milled trigger and unusually thick trigger guard. M1911A1 US ARMY stamping dented the dust cover also.
    9: Left side of number 926,402.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by mike radford; 12-05-2009 at 06:08 PM.
    57v

  2. #2
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    Default type 2 pending

    The Type Two Remington Rands began at about 925,000 serial number and continued until about 1,015,000ish. Early production was mixed with the Type One's with no distinct change over. The Type Two slide logo was about the same size as the Type One logo but New York was now "N.Y.". Apparently all were also Dulite blue finished like the Type Ones. The checkered small parts continued into Type Two producting including the slide stop and main spring housing but a few may have gotten grooved. Remington Rand continued to use checkered hammers, and thumb safeties throughout production. Most triggers were stamped but a few early will have milled triggers. Most will have the Keyes grips without reinforcement rings around the grip screws. All original WW2 barrels were DuLite blue and Type Two's had mostly High Standard and a few early guns had Springfield supplied barrels.

    Type Two's were in production in Feb. 1944 when tests showed interchangeabilty of parts problems. The line was shut down from mid March through May 1943 and changes were made. One change was from the No with a line under the small o, to NO for the serial number prefix. This was about serial 955,000 per Clawson and both prefixes are seen almost at random till about the end of Type Two production. Also, stamping of the serial number was done after finish beginning about 995,000. From what I have seen it appears that most Type Twos have the No prefix and the serials are stamped before finish.?

    pictures;
    1: The Type Two Logo.
    2: Serial number 925,182, less than 9,000 into production, and Type Two slides are beginning. Note the milled trigger, only one I have seen in a Type Two.
    3 and 4: 931,988 with stamped trigger but otherwise early type parts.
    5: Checkered parts found on most Type Twos, especially early in production.
    6: NO serial prefix found on some Type Two pistols. This one is very late.
    7 and 8: 1,009,471 with parkerized MSH and thumb safety(hard to see in pic I know). This is very unusual and the only one I have seen. Finish on frame and slide must be the same but small parts could be Parkerized on a DuLite pistol and blue on a Parkerized pistol. Most often they match.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by mike radford; 12-05-2009 at 06:33 PM.
    57v

  3. #3
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    Default type 3

    The Type Three Remington Rand production began at about 1,015,000ish and continued through the last pistol 2,465,139. The logo was reduced in size and is the most common of Rem Rands. All were Parkerized and a DuLite example is yet to materialize. Most got serrated main spring housings with eight ribs but a few early ones got the checkered MSH. Slide stops were also grooved. DuLite blue barrels were mostly High Standard but a few got Flannery Bolt Company barrels in 1944 and 45. Grips were usually the common Keyes with the reinforcement rings. The NO serial number prefix was used and the serial was stamped after finish so the finish should be lacking or damaged in the serial number. Heat treating was added to the slide lock notch as well as the end of the slide causing a change in color in those areas.

    Pictures;
    1: The smaller Type Three logo. Stamped triggers are now the norm.
    2 through 4: 1,026,948 early Type Three with serrated slide stop, Keyes grips with reinforcement rings and Parkerized finish. This one still has the checkered MSH as some early Type Three pistol will.
    5: NO prefix to the serial number which lacks finish due to stamped after finish. Typical blue barrel. Parkerized barrels are refinished.
    6 through 8: Number 2,010,300. Note the serrated MSH and slide stop. Note in pic 8 the change in slide color/darker from heat treating on the end of the slide and the slide lock notch.
    9: Late example 2,444,388 with the lighter colored frame than slide which is frequently seen in this serial range. The non-linear machine marks on the slide are also typical of the late examples.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by mike radford; 12-05-2009 at 06:53 PM.
    57v

  4. #4
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    Mike,

    Nice trio and Type I is hard to find in any condition. I am still looking for one...

    Roman

  5. #5
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    Mike,

    I too mistakenly thought Remington Rand run of the mill. I find type 1's very rare and type 2's scarce.

    Thanks for the great presentation and photo's. And congrats for finding great gun's.

    Cheer's......Jesse

  6. #6
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    Default

    Thanks for the kind words Roman and Jesse.

    Roman, the Type Ones are really tough. I looked for an upgrade of my first one for about 10 years. I have since encountered two on Gunbroker and bought the battle damaged one there. The other bid to just under $5000 but was really nice. Another was offered on CSP trader for $3000 but had bad finish damage from "blood" but it looked more like some other chemical must have caused it to me. Then I got lucky and found a decent one on Gunboards trader and jumped on it. I hope you can find a good one.

    Jesse, I have been beating the bushes pretty hard for quite some time and have managed to find a few good ones. You are right in that even the Type Twos are not an easy find. Production must be in the 75-80,000 range so not that common. I sure prefer the DuLite but the finish is not real durable. The DuLite Ithacas are no easy find either.
    57v

  7. #7
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    Very nice and made in my home town. Both Grand parents worked in the factory when they were making typewriters then during the war years. Bet they saw a lot of type 1's and 2's.
    Laugh hard and often

    Gary

  8. #8
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    Mike,

    Great information!

    I am not a huge collector of 1911's but scored this very late one in the original box from the last of production about 15 years ago.

    http://www.p38guns.com/RemingtonRand.htm

    I also have a "lend lease" gun, any serial number ranges on these pistols?

    http://www.p38guns.com/RemingtonLendLease.htm

    Mark

  9. #9
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    Thanks Gary and Mark.

    Gary, Rem Rand made a fine pistol and for $10 less than Colt. Ordnance was very happy with their product.

    Mark, Those both look like keepers. The late gun shows what I was speaking of concerning the frame being a ligher color than the slide. I can not see the non-linear machine marks but suspect they are there. I can see the darker pins, slide stop, mag release and the DuLite barrel so that is good. The box is probably OK but the vast majority out there are reproductions and some look good. I am a bit weak on them. Johnny Peppers is the best source on box correctness.

    The Lend Lease gun looks fine too. Dark small parts again. There are no shipping records for Rem Rand so no known serial ranges for their lend lease guns. Ithaca shipping records are available but disorganized and not in the best of condition.
    57v

  10. #10
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    Great presentation on the Remington Rands.


    I just thought you guys might like to see this. The Worlds Fair was just a few years before they started making pistols.


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