Results 1 to 10 of 10

Thread: Crown/U proof mark question

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Camarillo, California
    Posts
    4

    Default Crown/U proof mark question

    What are the different Crown/ U proof marks? I see that Joop uses the abbreviation Cc/U. Is this different than the Crown/ U proof mark, or the same thing? Does someone have good pictures of Crown/ U proof mark(s)?
    Will you ever see an Eagle/ N proof mark and a Crown/ U proof mark on the same pistol or only one or the other?

    Are Police Banners marked with the Crown/ U, the E/N, or other proof mark, or does it depend on the date of manufacture? How do acceptance marks (e.g. Eagle/ L) marks relate to proof marks on Commercial vs. Police pistols, etc.?

    What markings would a domestic Commercial (not sold as part of a contract) gun have?

    As you can see from my other Want to Buy post, I'm trying to obtain a Banner Commercial and there is a lot I need to learn. I have some Luger reference books ordered, but I'm anxious to learn in the meantime.


    Thanks,

    Ray
    Last edited by Maytag; 01-08-2010 at 09:32 PM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    New York, USA.
    Posts
    1,692

    Default

    Ray,

    C/C/U is different from C/U. You will not see C/N and C/U on the same pistol unless it was reproofed at a different time. Police Pistols are marked with an E/F, E/L/, E/C, commercial pistols are not. WWII commercial pistols will have the E/N with NO military proofs.

    Joop's Cc/U means Crown over Crown over U.

    As most here will tell you... BUY BOOKS!! FIRST!!!

    Good luck in your search!

    Dave

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    , Lower Saxony, Germany.
    Posts
    1,164

    Default

    Ray,

    check out this:

    http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...=6858#post6858

    it's always c/c/U: crown over crown over U. There are always two superposed crowns present.

    Regards

    Martin
    Value? Open an auction at GB or AA and in two weeks you'll know exactly....

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    , Antwerpen, Belgium.
    Posts
    1,815

    Default

    Gents,

    I was away for three weeks from the forum, due to a trip to the USA and a lot of work on the book about the Mauser Parabellum pistols that I want to finish now very soon.

    During the evolution of my research I started using C/c/U, or Cc/U as the shortcut for the Oberndorf pressure test stamp. As Martin explaned above, this is the correct way to describe the Crown above crown above U of this marking. See picture below.

    While working on the book and needing Tables having a column for the proof marking, I needed to adopt the format to other proof stamps, such as C/N and E/N. The Cc/U was truncated to C/U - just to shrink the colomn width. I do apologize...
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Joop van de Kant, co - author of:
    "The Mauser Parabellum 1930-1946"
    Analysis of a Million Luger Pistols
    Web-site: www.the-mauser-parabellum.com

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    , Lower Saxony, Germany.
    Posts
    1,164

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Joop van de Kant View Post
    See picture below.
    Hi Joop,

    interesting. I guess, this is the way the Oberndorf proof house used the c/c/U markings? The c/c/U markings used in the Suhl proof house did look different. See photos of a Roth-Sauer and a Sauer Bär pistol. Both crowns are square, while one crown in the Oberndorf (?) marking is more like a Royal crown (rounded and more "cloudy").

    Regards

    Martin
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Value? Open an auction at GB or AA and in two weeks you'll know exactly....

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    , Lower Saxony, Germany.
    Posts
    1,164

    Default

    Ray,

    while thinking again about your question, I have to specify my previous statement:

    Quote Originally Posted by sauerfan View Post
    it's always c/c/U: crown over crown over U. There are always two superposed crowns present.
    This is the case for pistols only. According to German proof law of 1891, pistols and revolvers, respectively had to be marked with c/c/U. Long guns (rifles, shotguns, drillings and so on) had only one crown over U - c/U. Plus additional proof markings not present on pistols and revolvers.

    Regards

    Martin
    Value? Open an auction at GB or AA and in two weeks you'll know exactly....

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Camarillo, California
    Posts
    4

    Default

    Thank you gentlemen for the follow up. Joop, I am looking forward to your book.

    Ray

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Houston, Texas, USA.
    Posts
    2,849

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    , Antwerpen, Belgium.
    Posts
    1,815

    Default

    Gents,

    My slowish conduct towards the (most estimated) messages on this forum is caused by my daily work on this book... It seems that we will be ready for printing in two more months.
    After that, I promise that I will attend to you all here on the forum like I did in the past!
    Joop van de Kant, co - author of:
    "The Mauser Parabellum 1930-1946"
    Analysis of a Million Luger Pistols
    Web-site: www.the-mauser-parabellum.com

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    , Antwerpen, Belgium.
    Posts
    1,815

    Default

    Martin,
    Thanks for the pictures of the C/c/U stamps on Roth-Sauer en Sauer-Bar pistols. Indeed, these are different from the Oberndorf C/c/U stamps. (I have five different sizes, used on Parabllum pistols between 1930 and (early) 1940.

    During my research I have read somewhere that the double crown / U was admitted when there was not enough space for both the C/B and C/U stamps, like on early 'Terzerole' (Single shot target pistols). The first crown represented the 'Beschuss' (pressure test), the second crown belonged to the 'Untersuchung'; checking of the arm's parts that had been the subject to the high pressure.

    The more we compare the stamps of the different German proof houses (1893-1939), the more we get convinced that they used different drawings and / or different suppliers for the dies.

    In the book I placed pictures of five different sizes of the Oberndorf C/c/U stamps - usd between 1930 and 1940. But none is comparable with the stamps of your photographs.

    Hey - you see that I did not forget the lessons you gave me three years ago!
    Joop van de Kant, co - author of:
    "The Mauser Parabellum 1930-1946"
    Analysis of a Million Luger Pistols
    Web-site: www.the-mauser-parabellum.com

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •