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Thread: PPK from Zella-Mehlis needs info

  1. #11
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    Franck,
    Good photos. The first serial numbered mags I have seen with a "dot" after the Magazine number.

    You also asked the meaning of the muzzle markings. It was just the first way that the SS chose to number the slides of their guns. The first three variations were marked this way. Later guns were marked with the serial number on the right side of the slide, long before Walther began doing that for all guns.
    Steve

  2. #12
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    Franck,
    A second look at your mags indicates, at least to me, that they may have a problem. The serial numbers appear to be possibly applied crookedly and also appear to be dented around digits. These are not features of factory installed numbers. But of course, this is based on photos. Only a hands on inspection would confirm that.
    Steve

  3. #13
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    Steve,
    Thank you very much for the information and your point of view on the mags numbering.
    Cheers,
    Franck M.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tepo911 View Post
    Franck,
    A second look at your mags indicates, at least to me, that they may have a problem. The serial numbers appear to be possibly applied crookedly and also appear to be dented around digits. These are not features of factory installed numbers. But of course, this is based on photos. Only a hands on inspection would confirm that.
    Steve
    I confirm what you are saying, Steve. Both magazines seem to have been marked the same way as the slide muzzle area. But the serial is really close to one listed in the Red Booklet which lists the 958912 when mine is 958923. We could assume the owner lost his magazines and the SS armor marked standard magazine to make the full set in accordance with their standards ?
    Cheers,
    Franck M.

  5. #15
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    Franck,
    Please do not take my observations as an opinion that your PPK is not an authentic SS issued gun. From what can be seen in your photographs, it most certainly is authentic.

    But having said that, it is my opinion that the magazines are not of original issue. Who knows when they were marked and added to the gun and by whom. Unfortunately, this has been done in the past by persons hoping to boost the price when selling. An SS issued PPK with two matching magazines is at the top of value hierarchy. With one matching magazine commanding a lower price and an authentic gun without matching magazines commanding an even lower price. But all are rare, valuable and in great demand.

    Hopefully, your purchase did not require a substantial additional premium for the magazines.
    Steve

  6. #16
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    Nov 2009
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    Germany
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    Hi Steve,

    Don't worry I did not take your observations in the wrong way.
    But your assessment about making fake mags is probably wrong.
    I know this pistol has been kept from Berlin in 1945 until nowadays by the guy who took it off of the German Officer.
    I got this pistol because he died ans his family did not want to keep it.
    The purchase has been done through an intermediate person who is one of my best friend. At this point in time, no one knew it was a SS PPK and I got it for a standard price, I mean the price of a standard PPK.
    I discovered myself on this forum how rare is this model together with two matching mags.
    If the mags were fake to increase the value, then the guy would have ask me much more money.
    I am pretty sure this case would be an interesting case for John Pearson to study.
    Cheers,
    Franck M.

  7. #17
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    Since a couple of days I am thinking about these two mags and I found a possible explanation.
    The reason is not to say that my PPK is very rare together with its two mags but more to understand this case.

    After having read in depth the articles of John P. Pearson on the NSDAP PPK pistol I have my personal opinion on the markings which are on these mags.

    J.P.Pearson says :

    "These first PPK pistols carried by uniformed Political Leaders were designated as the Service Pistol and it was up to the Party member to obtain his own PPK pistol. To date I have uncovered no period documents to suggest that a PPK Service Pistol had to be newly purchased specifically for Party use. Thus it is assumed that any PPK pistol could serve as a memberís official Service Pistol."

    And :

    "The actual stamping of the muzzle serial number on the slide was not done by the Walther factory but rather almost certainly by the armors within the SS."

    So the newly purchased SS PPK were ordered with the serial on the slide muzzle and with two matching mags.
    But for what concerns the case where a Party member wanted to bring an existing PPK up to the use of the Party, this PPK could not have already in anyway two matching numbered mags. My personal opinion is that the SS armors then stamped the slide muzzle AND the two magazines in order to bring this private PPK up to the Party standards.
    I got this opinion by knowing the history of my PPK which has never been in the collectors circuit before me.
    I think this interesting consideration must be submitted to J.P.Pearson and I am ready to make some more pictures of my PPK to participate to a new contribution on this topic.
    Cheers,
    Franck M.

  8. #18
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    Franck,
    I reread your posts. Unfortunately, the magazines, in my opinion, were numbered by someone else other than the factory or SS armorer. They do not match anything else confirmed to be authentic. The dented crooked digits, do not bode well for any logical explanation.
    John Pearson's telephone number is 818-769-3509.
    Steve
    Last edited by Tepo911; 02-15-2010 at 03:24 PM.

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Illinois, USA.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf88 View Post
    Since a couple of days I am thinking about these two mags and I found a possible explanation.
    The reason is not to say that my PPK is very rare together with its two mags but more to understand this case.

    After having read in depth the articles of John P. Pearson on the NSDAP PPK pistol I have my personal opinion on the markings which are on these mags.

    J.P.Pearson says :

    "These first PPK pistols carried by uniformed Political Leaders were designated as the Service Pistol and it was up to the Party member to obtain his own PPK pistol. To date I have uncovered no period documents to suggest that a PPK Service Pistol had to be newly purchased specifically for Party use. Thus it is assumed that any PPK pistol could serve as a memberís official Service Pistol."

    And :

    "The actual stamping of the muzzle serial number on the slide was not done by the Walther factory but rather almost certainly by the armors within the SS."

    So the newly purchased SS PPK were ordered with the serial on the slide muzzle and with two matching mags.
    But for what concerns the case where a Party member wanted to bring an existing PPK up to the use of the Party, this PPK could not have already in anyway two matching numbered mags. My personal opinion is that the SS armors then stamped the slide muzzle AND the two magazines in order to bring this private PPK up to the Party standards.
    I got this opinion by knowing the history of my PPK which has never been in the collectors circuit before me.
    I think this interesting consideration must be submitted to J.P.Pearson and I am ready to make some more pictures of my PPK to participate to a new contribution on this topic.
    Apparently Mr. Pearson did not read the Wotka manuscript in Auto Mag. There it is quite plainly stated in period party literature that the first PL PPK could ONLY be the Walther RZM marked PPK. And these were only available new to Political Leaders with proper credentials. A PPK purchased prior to the RZM contract was not acceptable as a PL PPK according the party regulations.

  10. #20
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    Germany
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tepo911 View Post
    Franck,
    I reread your posts. Unfortunately, the magazines, in my opinion, were numbered by someone else other than the factory or SS armorer. They do not match anything else confirmed to be authentic. The dented crooked digits, do not bode well for any logical explanation.
    John Pearson's telephone number is 818-769-3509.
    Steve
    All what I know is that I got this gun directly from the French veteran who took it off of a German Officer at the end of WW2. This pistol has never been in the hands of any collector who would want to make it more valuable.
    I do not use to purchase collectibles from shop, only from veterans or family of veterans.
    I strongly believe these mags are authentic and since my PPK is not for sale, there is no real matter.
    If someone finds an explanation it would be great, if not I don't mind
    Cheers,
    Franck M.

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