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1914 Erfurt Artillery Luger Markings

11K views 62 replies 10 participants last post by  MauriceC96 
#1 ·
hello

I have already posted this thread but I don' think in the right forum , I'll do it again here .

I just bought a 1914 Erfurt Artillery Luger with the following markings on the front side of the hand-grip frame 13 JAG 2.PF.B .129 . Could it come from the Royal Saxon 2th jäger Btn N°13 ?

What about the rest ?

Any help welcome . Thanks
 

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#31 ·
Okay...... this is going way beyond anything I know about Lugers .So.....hoping I get you right , it would mean the markings were punched and not engraved with a pantograph ( ???) . "Vorschrift ueber das Stempeln der Handwaffen" , what is the English for this ? Thanks a lot , it's amazing how much you can learn from a simple question .
 
#34 ·
Hi Maurice, I don't hold an opinion on the gun in question. If George (keoki7) thinks it's legitimate, then it's OK with me. While I have never seen an Army gun with pantographed marks, we do know that these machines were available during this time period. Unit marks were ordered to be discontinued in 1916, but many unit armorers seem to have ignored this order, and many marks that "are not to regulations" can be found on Lugers dated after 1916. The pantograph machine uses a small rotating cutter. Pantographed marks can be distinguished by the circular cutting marks at the bottom of the grooves and by the fact that every line has a rounded end. Struck marks, on the other hand, can have lines that have squared off ends or can come to sharp points (see photo). If you want to see a pantograph machine in action, go to any store that sell trophies and awards. I hope this helps. Regards, Norm

 
#35 ·
Hello , thanks for this very interesting bit research . A few points : there is no trace of a cutting tool in the markings , this I am sure . On the other , whether the markings are stamped or pantographed , in what respect does it modify the dating of the markings ?
And a last point : in what way was this technique useful in the context of ww1 and trench warfare ? Regards and thanks again.
 
#37 ·
The nonregulation size of the marking, like the marking itself, is typical of late war unit markings. I have always believed that the frequency of unit marked 1917 LP08s was due to their being unique weapons to infantry units. Of the 80 unit marked 1917 LP08s and P08s I have recorded 56 are LP08s. Many, if not all, have non regulation markings.

As to whether or not the marking on Maurice's example is pantographed I can not offer an opinion.
 
#38 ·
The marking clearly appears to be pantogrpahed and not stamped, as evidenced by all the tips of the letters and numbers being rounded, as you would expect to be when a rotary cutter is applied. The other give away is the uniformity of the positioning of the characters and of the depth of the engraving.
 
#39 ·
I have no horse in this race, but I have formed an opinion:
I think that the characters in this unit mark were not applied in the usual fashion for the following reasons: Each character is perfectly-evenly spaced; each character is exactly the same height as the others; all the characters are placed perfectly in a straight line; none of the characters are according to regulation.

Now, having said that, I believe that if George accepts it as a legitimate marking, then it is right. I am just very curious that, if it was not stamped, and not pantographed, then how was it applied?

It would be informative if George could personally inspect this pistol and relate his opinion.
Bob
 
#40 ·
It would be informative if George could personally inspect this pistol and relate his opinion.
Bob

Hi Bob, The pistol is in France. George, to the best of my knowledge, is in Virginia. I think we're going to have to make do with photos. Best regards, Norm
 
#42 ·
Some one said on this forum that only navy luger were stamped , so why bother to do it on a luger artillery ? I still hope this piece is still from 1914. So , if it is in fact a fake , its value is probably less than what I am about to pay. In France you pay first a retainer, then wait a couple months for the legal documents to use the gun , the pay the balance.So please is it still worth buying this luger? Thanks
 
#43 ·
I always believe that fake lugers mostly US invention...and there is a theoretical possibility that it was pantographed. I would be more concerned about the fact that the barrel bluing looks completely different from the rest of the gun, at least on photos. Did you examined the gun on the account of barrel being reblued? The halos and other staff... Then again, if it is cheap- go for it...
Regards
Boris
 
#47 ·
I always believe that fake lugers mostly US inventionRegards
Boris
I agree that in the past that was true. Unfortunately our European (and South American) cousins have joined the faking business, producing as many or more rare and expensive fake Lugers as the American "waffenfabrik". Europe has long preceded the United States in the "restoration" of rare and valuable early firearms. In Europe this has been an accepted practice with no stigma associated with making old guns look new. I do not condone the "fakery" that exists in the US, but our European and South American fakers are just as guilty, if not more so, than in the USA.
 
#45 ·
Hi Maurice, $2,100.00 is not a lot to pay for a 1914 Erfurt Artillery, they are hard to find. I know that pantographed unit markings have not been seen before (at least by anyone who has read this thread), but I don't think that automatically disqualifies this gun. There's a first time for everything. Besides, if I was faking a unit mark, I would choose something sexier, like a flying unit. Let us know what you decide. Regards, Norm
 
#46 ·
Hi norm ,thanks for the advice , I also thought I was not asked too much for this luger . And gun is in a very good state , the " grooves" are as good as new . So I think , until further notice , I ' ll go for it . Still why the bother faking , as you imply , a very ordinary unit markings ? Regards Maurice
 
#49 · (Edited)
Dear MauriceC96,
only the Navy Lugers were pantographed (not punched!). Only those for the Army and for the "Polizei" were punched. This is at the beginning of World War I (Navy, even pantographed, and Army Lugers, even punched), during the Weimar Republic Era (Army and "Polizei" Lugers, even punched ) and, in the Navy (even pantographed), during the Weimar Era and Third Reich.
Saluti
Giuliano
 
#51 ·
Maurice,
the use of pantograph needs qualified personnel, which was the Arsenal of the German Navy. The P08 of the Army and, later, of the Police, were punched in the Armouries of the Departments. The use of a punch was simpler than that of a pantograph.
If a P08 for the Army (as a P08 or a LP08, i.e. Luger Artillery) is pantographed it means that is not an original. If you want to falsify an inscription, is, however, easier to use the pantograph. In fact, just go to an engraver of plaques or trophies. Otherwise, the use of punches for a forger, is, first, to more complex, but, then, the punches must be found.
If a P08 for the Army is punched, it means that is an original so, its value is greater.
Dear Maurice i miei più cordiali saluti
Giuliano
 
#54 ·
Looks superb , what number is it ? ( if you don't mind ) , do you shoot with it ?
Returning to pantographs , why , do you think , would somebody waste his time faking a marking on a luger artillery ? And with an ordinary unit ? Thanks again for the pics ;great talking to you .
 
#55 ·
Dear Maurice, the s.n. of this my LP08 is 7485. The weapon was almost a gift from a friend in 2000. I paid almost more the holster and accessories!
I think, the Jaeger zu Pferd are not an ordinary unit and, if a weapon has an indication of a department, however, this increases its value. A person or, better, a dishonest seller can do it!
Dear Maurice, it is great to talk with you too.
Saluti cordialissimi
Giuliano
 
#57 ·
I forgot to tell you I do not shoot with these old ladies.
About the inscriptions, I tell you the truth, I do not like. It is probable that, if the inscriptions are made with a pantograph, could be a very modern equipment. If the writing had been done with a punch with your finger you should feel the relief of margins of numbers and letters.
Dear Maurice, don't worry, your LP08 seems to me very fine, this in spite of the inscription!!
Saluti sempre cordialissimi
Giuliano
 
#58 ·
That is precisely what I have been saying , you really can feel "the margins uf numbers and letters " , as I said I am sure a blind person could read it with fingers .
As for shooting , I shoot with these "old ladies" : one 1912 Mauser C96 , one Luger 1918 and a Swiss Luger 00.06 . Best regards
 
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