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Armand Gavage 7.65mm pistol survey?

17K views 61 replies 20 participants last post by  martin08 
#1 ·
Hello,

I hope that some collectors are willing to share some details on their Gavages. I am trying to determine grips, proofs and relation to serial numbers.

Please provide the following data:

1) Serial number
2) Liege proofs or German proofs
3) Black GA synthetic / molded grips or smooth wood grips. (please detail if grips are different than listed)

Thank you for your time!
Anthony
 
#3 ·
Well here is my article on the AG in German but it is easy to read the serialnumbers and others.

Die Pistole Armand Gavage wurde von der Firma – Fab. d’armes de haute précision,
Armand Gavage, Liège – im Zeitraum von den frühen 30er bis etwa 1942 gebaut.
Ungefähr 5000 Stück dieser Waffe, die im äußeren Erscheinungsbild einer Clementpistole ähnelt, sind gebaut worden.
Warum einige dieser Pistolen deutsche Armee Stempel ( kein WaA !! ) aufweisen, ist bis heute nicht geklärt.
Da die Waffe alles andere als modern zu bezeichnen ist und obendrein auch nicht aus den besten Materialien zu bestehen scheint, muss die Verwendung bei Wehrmachtsteilen aufgrund lokaler Engpässe bei der Versorgung mit Faustfeuerwaffen zustande gekommen sein.
Die Pistole lässt sich äußerst einfach demontieren. Nachdem man den Demontagehebel auf der linken Rahmenseite umgelegt hat, lässt sich der Schlitten mit dem Verschluss als Einheit nach hinten und oben aus einer Führung ziehen.
Innerhalb der Waffe sind keinerlei Stempelungen feststellbar, wie überhaupt auf den meisten Pistolen keinerlei Herstellerhinweise oder Beschussstempel erkennbar sind.
Lediglich auf den Griffschalen ist das AG-Logo eingeprägt. Einige wenige Pistolen mit belgischem Beschuss weisen auf der hinteren rechten Griffstückseite einen Herstellerstempel „AG“ auf.
Interessant ist, dass die Magazine vernickelt sind.

Auflistung der bekannt gewordenen A.Gavage Pistolen nach Jan C.Still, ergänzt durch meine Beobachtungen:


# 122 Deutscher Armee Stempel ( DAS ), German army stamp
# 744 BB
# 747 Belgischer Beschuss ( BB ), Belgian proof
# 827 BB
# 1022 DAS
# 1071 DAS
# 1077 BB
# 1096 DAS
# 1098 BB
# 1100 DAS
# 1120 DAS
# 1151 DAS
# 1182 DAS
# 1206 DAS Holzgriffschalen , wood grips
# 1263 BB
# 1411 BB
# 1456 BB
# 1474 BB
# 1493 BB
# 1516 DAS
# 1524 BB, weißfertig, left in the white
# 1539 BB
# 1576 DAS
# 1585 DAS Holzgriffschalen
# 1641 DAS
# 1961 DAS
# 201x DAS
# 2014 DAS Holzgriffschalen
# 2228 BB
# 2320 DAS
# 2471 DAS
# 2489 DAS Holzgriffschalen
# 2514 DAS
# 2550 DAS
# 2582 DAS
# 3054 DAS Holzgriffschalen
# 3139 DAS
# 3139 DAS
# 3316 ohne jeden Stempel, Holzgriffschalen, without any stampings
# 3361 BB, Holzgriffschalen, vernickelt, nickel plated
# 3440 DAS
# 3583 DAS + BB
# 3586 DAS + BB
# 3618 DAS
# 3633 DAS
# 3697 BB, weißfertig, Holzgriffschalen left in the white
# 3896 BB, weißfertig , Holzgriffschalen left in the white
# 3919 keinerlei Markierungen, without any stampings
# 3949 BB
# 4126 DAS , Holzgriffschalen
# 4127 DAS + BB
# 4158 DAS + BB, Holzgriffschalen, AG Stempel rechts hinten Griffstück
# 4191 BB , Holzgriffschalen
# 4198 BB , Holzgriffschalen
# 4590 ohne jeden Stempel, Holzgriffschalen
# 4612 ohne jeden Stempel, Holzgriffschalen
# keine kein Beschuss, Holzgriffschalen, no serial number and without proof






Still vermutet, dass etwa 1500 dieser Pistolen bei der Wehrmacht verwendet worden sind.

Die Wehrmachtsausführung wird hier im Vergleich zur ursprünglichen belgischen Ausführung gezeigt.
Im Gegensatz zu den blank belassenen Bedienteilen und Federn sind diese Waffenteile bei der „deutschen Ausführung“ brüniert. Achtung, diese Pistolen sind nicht überarbeitet oder neu brüniert , wie manche Zeitgenossen annehmen.
Die Beschriftung am Zerlegehebel liest sich so: Normale Stellung – Zerlegestellung.

Sammlern sei empfohlen, diese Waffe in jedem erreichbaren Zustand zu erwerben, da es sich hier um eine sehr seltene Wehrmachtswaffe handelt, die fast nie auf dem Sammlermarkt auftaucht.


Fritz
 
#4 ·
Thank you Fritz and Mark! Let's say that I am impressed, I did not expect that much data and yet you confirm what I suspected for long.

I can not find a shred of evidence that any were made before 1939 or even 1940 just before the invasion...I looked into the proofing of Gavages in Liege proofhouse records and they are not there! I argue that almost all were seized by the Germans as this was just put in production with both proofed and unproofed pistols in the factory... The patent was filed in 1932 but that does not mean that production started at that time. The wood grips were substitutes and show up on both German and Liege proofed samples.

This also explains why no pistols are marked, Gavage was a good marketer and clearly labeled all their guns, only the few prewar grips exist with GA logo...
Can anybody proof me wrong?

Thanks
Anthony
 
#6 · (Edited)
Anthony,

Very interesting !

In my opinion the roots of the AG will be found in the ÖWA Modell 7,65 from 1923. In their outstanding book -Selbstladepistolen in Österreich-Ungarn bzw. Österreich 1914 bis heute - Mötz/ Schuy are showing on page 307 a copy of an advertisement ( ÖWA-Katalog) from 1923. The given messures are absolut identical with the AG. Regarding the picture I see an AG with minor changes.


Fritz
 

Attachments

#8 ·
Hello Fritz,

Most interesting! I have wondered where the design came from... any idea if the AG may have been made on contract or if the rights were purchased? Historically some German designers have had guns made in Liege when they could not find manufacturers. I know nothing about the OWA!

I have heard good things about this book and need to find one now. Thanks for the info!

Anthony
 
#9 ·
Anthony,
Fritz,

find here two pictures of my Armand Gavage which I picked up a few years ago for little money. Serial number is 3749. Inner and outer condition is more or less perfect.

View attachment 109033 View attachment 109034

Regards

Stefan
Stefan, this is the nicest one I have seen. Seems like yours has a GA marking on the right which I have not observed before.
Beautiful piece
Anthony
 
#13 ·
Yes, of course you should buy it. You can not even buy a bad Spanish Browning copy for that price.

Is the mag release indeed missing? These were all drilled for lanyard but non were installed, so they all have the hole on the lower part of the frame.

As the grips are not original, here is an option that may increase its appeal, it will never be original again but more pleasing to look at:
http://vintagegungrips.net/ao-g4.html

Thanks
Anthony
 
#16 ·
Hey Anthony,

Not sure why I never replied to the beginning of the post however now that it is refreshed here is my list:

Armand Gavage
122 (German Army Test Proofs) Bakelite Grips
747 (Belgian Proofs) Bakelite Grips
827 (Belgian Proofs) Bakelite Grips
1071 (German Army Test Proofs) Bakelite Grips
1096 (German Army Test Proofs) Bakelite Grips
1098 (Belgian Proofs) Bakelite Grips
1100 (German Army Test Proofs) Bakelite Grips
1120 (German Army Test Proofs) Bakelite Grips
1127 (Belgian Proofs) Bakelite Grips
1171 (German Army Test Proofs) Bakelite Grips
1206 (German Army Test Proofs) Bakelite Grips
1263 (Belgian Proofs) Bakelite Grips
1516 (German Army Test Proofs) Bakelite Grips "Nickel Magazine"
1524 (German Army Test Proofs) Bakelite Grips
1576 (German Army Test Proofs) Bakelite Grips
1585 (German Army Test Proofs) Wood Grips
1641 (German Army Test Proofs) Bakelite Grips
1961 (German Army Test Proofs) Bakelite Grips
1778 (German Army Test Proofs) Wood Grips
1809
181* (German Army Test Proofs) Wood Grips
2014 (German Army Test Proofs) Wood Grips
2228 (Belgian Proofs) Bakelite Grips
2320
2420 (German Army Test Proofs) Bakelite Grips
2426
2471 (German Army Test Proofs) Bakelite Grips
2489 (German Army Test Proofs) Wood Grips "Nickel Magazine"
2514 (German Army Test Proofs) Bakelite Grips
2550 (German Army Test Proofs) Bakelite Grips
2582 (German Army Test Proofs) Bakelite Grips
2633 (German Army Test Proofs)
3054 (German Army Test Proofs) Wood Grips
3139 (German Army Test Proofs) Bakelite Grips
3440 (German Army Test Proofs) Bakelite Grips
3586 (German Army Test Proofs) & (Belgian Proofs) Bakelite Grips
3633 (German Army Test Proofs) Bakelite Grips
3696 (Belgian Proofs)
3914 (Belgian Proofs) Bakelite Grips
4127 (German Army Test Proofs) & (Belgian Proofs) Bakelite Grips
4590 (No Proofs) Wood Grips "Nickel Magazine"
4612 (No Proofs)


If you still interested!

-Jason S
 
#18 ·
It is the other way around, from my observations. Now the difference may be that the German proofed guns remain in collections longer and Liege proofed guns circulate more. There is certainly a premium to be paid for German proofed guns even if all ended up in use by the Germans.

Anthony
 
#19 ·
Thank you Gentlemen for the lists and postings!

All the Gavages I have owned had wooden grips (by coincidence). I am curious what the material is of the black grips? I very much doubt that it is Bakelite as that would not have been used on a 1939-1940 gun and the grips are black and not a dark brown. It has no signs of being phenolic. So I must conclude that it is thermoplastic... I see these pop up in Liege manufacturing just before the war and would love to know more about the material. Any ideas?

Does anybody know?
 
#24 ·
#21 ·
Thanks but I can not see the photo. Any chance of getting a detail photo of the back? It does not hurt to ask...

Thanks again.
Anthony
 
#23 ·
Sorry for the terrible photos....They were taken a while back ...(I take much better ones now) lol. I can take better photos a little later with much better detail.....If you take a look however the grips held up to the light are almost translucent on the edges!

-Jason S
 
#28 ·
#29 ·
Anthony, You say that the German proofed guns are rarer than the belgian proofed guns, but more german guns have been reported on this thread. What do you base that on? Are you saying the German proofed guns are more desirable? As you say, they all went to the Germans.Doug
 
#30 ·
Two of the contributors are in Europe, I have seen more Liege proofed guns here than guns with German proofs. That is just me and can be coincidence. Collectors do pay more for the German proofed guns, I feel certain that most people do not think all went to Germans. I think that the Liege proofed guns circulate more and that German proofed guns are retained longer in collections (judging from friends). These postings are somewhat the first exchange on the subject, Fritz with his list does confirm my initial suspicion that all were 1940 production and captured.

Thanks
Anthony
 
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