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M1906 Swiss Bern Luger

8K views 29 replies 3 participants last post by  Pete E. 
#1 · (Edited)
Hi all, I have been offered this gun also, IMO a original piece with no issues, any opinions?

Cheers
 

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#4 ·
Hi Ben,

Reason I was looking for a ball-park SN was to see if the revised side plate (with the tall reinforcement "island") is appropriate for the SN or not.

Somewhere around SN-27xxx, you saw the revised side plate come in and also a switch from rust blue (with interior white surfaces) to salt blue (dip blue) with blued interiors. There was probably a few 100's of gun overlap where you see old and new features...as parts were used up and new processes were fully in-play.

Gun looks very promising and maybe a Bern factory original finish.

Holster alone is about $ 150 or 200 or so. Looks like the closure strap is loose and needs a re-sew. We are all spoiled here in the USA to have a Member, Jerry Burney, do such wonderful repair work...with reasonable pricing for the work, too.

Also from the SN, we can get a date for the gun and see how close it is to the "23" dated holster.

Also...if you let me know the last 2-digits of the serial number...I have 3 numbered Bern magazines I am trying to find the "right" gun for...00, 66, or 87...have all three that need a match-up. More than likely the magazine with the gun is probably the more prevalent un-numbered ones which seem to be the norm. It does look like the wood Bern did.
 
#8 · (Edited)
Hi Ben,

Nope...the SN has no "clue" to the year of production.

The year/production table for the Military-version (the only version for this model) of the M1906 W+F Bern Luger is presented in the V. Bobba book about Swiss Lugers; with info. coming from company documentation, etc.

1918-1919 - 985 guns made. SN's 15216 - 16200.
1920 - 1200 guns made. SN's 16201 - 17400.
1921 - 1350 guns made. SN's 17401 - 18750.
1922 - 2130 guns made. SN's 18751 - 20880.
1923 - 2370 guns made. SN's 20881 - 23250.
1924 - 1320 guns made. SN's 23251 - 24570.
1925 - 600 guns made. SN's 24571 - 25170.
1926 - 600 guns made. SN's 25171 - 25770.
1927 - 1250 guns made. SN's 25771 - 27020.
1928 - 1350 guns made. SN's 27021 - 28370.
1929 - 1401guns made. SN's 28371 - 29771.
1930 - 699 guns made. SN's 29772 - 30470.
1931 - 951 guns made. SN's 30471 - 31421.
1932 - 1099 guns made. SN's 31422 - 32520.
1933 - 569 guns made. SN's 32521 - 33089.

A few more (maybe 3 to 5 total) made after SN 33089. Year is unknown.


The year/production table for the Military-version of the M1929 Bern Luger is presented in the V. Bobba book about Swiss Lugers; with info. coming from company documentation, etc.

1929 - Prototypes only. Maybe up to 21 or even 51 guns.
1933 - 720 guns made. SN's 50001 - 50720.
1934 - 1940 guns made. SN's 50721 - 52660.
1935 - 940 guns made. SN's 52661 - 53600.
1936 - 300 guns made. SN's 53601 - 53900.
1937 - 1130 guns made. SN's 53901 - 55030.
1938 - 750 guns made. SN's 55031 - 55780.
1939 - 1900 guns made. SN's 55781 - 57680.
1940 - 2420 guns made. SN's 57681 - 60100.
1941 - 3200 guns made. SN's 60101 - 63300.
1942 - 2300 guns made. SN's 63301 - 65600.
1943 - 4600 guns made. SN's 65601 - 70200.
1944 - 5800 guns made. SN's 70201 - 76000.
1945 - 1730 guns made. SN's 76001 - 77330.
1946 - 211 guns made. SN's 77731 - 77941.


For the M1929 Swiss Luger, you will see a date (such as 6.31) stamped in the bottom of the front frame well (where the take down lever shaft runs through the well). "6.31" would mean that example gun was made in June of 1931.

Photo below is of another Luger made in November 1947...a very late one in the commercial run.
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#9 ·
Hi guys, not posted for a while as been busy with work etc. Well I bought this Swiss Luger, looks very nice to me, would like opinions as to the blueing if original. This is a 1929 made gun as per the posts above.

Many thanks
 

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#10 ·
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#13 · (Edited)
Hi Ben,

Congratulations on the new acquisition ! Always nice to see Swiss guns !


Regarding your ?'s about original finish or not...

Here are some things to know and look for :

1. Around serial number 27xxx, Bern switched from rust-blue to salt-blue (i.e. dip blue)...so your gun's interior surfaces are not expected to be in-the-white...and we can see from your front frame photos it is not which is correct for your gun's SN being much later than 27xxx.

Around this same time, the style of the trigger side plate changed and the reinforcing "rib" running vertically on the outer surface now runs to the top of the side plate. I thought this was an "ugly" change. It seems out-of-balance (i.e. tall but way too thin). With the later M1929, the same taller "rib" is there...but a bit thicker and more balanced-looking and not so ugly.

2. A photo of the polished area at the thumb safety lever might be an area to help determine if finish is original or redone.

3. If the P-release stamping has some halo-effect; it will tell you 1 of 2 things : 1) Gun had its original finish and then the P-release stamp was applied and it left halo-effect. Or... 2) Gun could have had a Bern refinish and when it was P-release stamped, it left halo-effect on top of the refinished bluing.

If the P-release stamping shows no halo-efftect; that means the gun was stamped and then refinished before it was sold/given to the retiring Swiss soldier.

4. What is the color of the top of the toggle pin running through the left-side toggle knob ? If blued, then the gun was refinished.

5. I noticed some British proof stampings. Same issue with halo-effect for these stampings. If halo is not there, then probably refinished (i.e. not by the Swiss) after it came to the UK and was inspected.

6. There is also the possibility of some partial refinish of parts...if an owner wanted to locally fix some cosmetic areas.

Hope this helps...

Pete...
 
#14 ·
Hi Pete

Many thanks for the info, I have taken some more pics of hopefully the areas you discussed, so looking at these extra pics taken on a higher setting but light not great here, from the colour of the toggle pin the gun has probably been reblued at some point?

Cheers

Ben
 

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#15 ·
Ben,

To add an Item # 7 to my last posting...the depth of the toggle link markings is also a good area to look over to help you decide if a gun might be refinished (or partially refinished).

Here is a good photo example of the marking and also the issue of toggle pin condition (my previous Item # 4).
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#16 ·
Again Pete many thanks for your time and experience. I gave the gun a good clean today, after taking the grips off and having a good look inside the frame I actually thing the blueing could be original, it seems consistent all over the gun (unless they did a total blue restoration with it)

Cheers

Ben
 

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#17 ·
Pete/Gents

Just for learning purposes I have been looking at this one, I believe this to be a refurb, on the top view of the gun there is a red burnish, I have been told in the past this is a sign of a refurb?
 

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#18 · (Edited)
Ben,

All the M1929 Bern Lugers (and the M1929 Bern revolvers) were salt/dip blued to save production costs.

When the Lugers (and revolvers) first came out, you see many with original finishes that have the "plum" color to the barrels. But after the first batch of guns, you see less and less plum barrels.

The "black' variety of M1929 Luger which you posted appears to have normal bluing color on the side photos (of the receiver fork) and only small areas of plum color along the top photo. Maybe this is some lighting effect. If plum is there, I would expect to see it all along the visible surfaces of the entire receiver fork.

Many, many of the Swiss Lugers and other arms were routinely re-finished by the Bern arsenal as part of their program to keep an arm in good mechanical shape and looking good. If a retiring soldier did not opt to buy/take home their arm when retiring, it was reissued to the next soldier coming in. If it needed work or refurbishment, it got it. Also... a retiring soldier who decided to keep his arm had the option of having it refurbished, too. I assume for a nominal charge. If he took it home, it was P-release stamped, also.

The Luger you posted could very well have been refinished. The serial number stamping on the top of the rear toggle link looks "thin / shallow" and the P-release stamping on the front of the trigger guard (from the off angle photo) appears to have no halo effect around the stamping of the letter P.

Mauser in Germany had the "plum" color problem with some Luger and/or Luger parts during WWII, too.

Usually due to rushing the salt/dip process where time, temps. or chemical concentrations were not maintained properly.
 
#21 ·
Pete, from your list of the serial numbers I presume that dependant on the serial number of a given gun would depend on if it is a M1906 or a M1929? For the example the first one I have bought with that serial number puts it in the M1906, the one I have bought today with the serial number 75807 would that then make it a M1929? Hope this makes sense?

Cheers

Ben
 
#22 · (Edited)
Hi Ben,

Depending on your 1st. gun's SN...it could either be the DWM made M1906 or the Bern made M1906 W+F model.

Your second Luger is a Bern M1929.

After the Bern M1906 W+F guns (which stopped around SN33xxx), the Swiss skipped to 50001 when they started the numbering of the M1929 Lugers.

Not sure why and I have not been able to find out. Might have wanted the M1929 Lugers and the M1882/1929 revolvers (also a new revolver design compared to the older M1882 revolver) to both start with SN-50001. Both the new Luger and the new revolver came out at the same time.
 
#24 · (Edited)
Yes...and once you finish getting a nice representative sample of each Military version, you can tell your wife/family you have to start all over, again, with the similar civilian/commercial versions.

And you can do the same with the Swiss revolvers.

BTW...here are photo scans of the production/SN tables from the large V. Bobba book on Swiss Lugers :
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And some info on the M1929 Swiss revolvers that a Member (Guisan) on the Swiss Rifles site put together :
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