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1902 Swiss Fat Barrel Luger 9mm: Help evaluating...

9K views 29 replies 14 participants last post by  cirelaw 
#1 ·
I had such a wonderful response to my last post, I thought I would ask for your thoughts on how much to value my 1902 Fat Barrel Luger...

Perhaps the collective minds can give a rough idea as to the value of my Luger...I know these pictures are not great, snapped with my iPhone, but you can get a sense of the condition and numbers matching...

Very difficult to get pricing as there have not been too many to trade hands...

Many thanks for any and all insight...
 

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#2 ·
I cannot comment on the variation itself, as I have no first hand experience with it, but the gun appears to be a very nice restoration or an arsenal rework(as many swiss guns were arsenal refinished and often more than once) :
The straw and fireblue appear to be too fresh and too uniform. Difficult to judge the blueing originality due to the picture quality.
It is, also, my understanding that 1902s should not have halos around the serials...
 
#3 ·
Many thanks mouser...are you referring to the Halos on the barrel serial numbers?

From my limited knowledge, barrel stamps on Lugers (I admit, I do not know if 1902s are unique) were stamped after the barrel was blued as the barrel had to be blue prior to proof firing...once the firearm successfully passed the proof fire, the stamps were applied...to the rest of the gun still in the white, and to the barrel already blued, resulting in Halos...

I would be very helpful to me if you can point me to a reference that explains the 1902 process...I do not mean to cause you undue effort, only if you have this reference at the ready...


Still very anxious to get anyones thought on a rough value...
 
#4 ·
All, One of my long time friends and a life long student of Swiss Lugers and a charter member of NAPCA said, "If it's a Swiss, it's been re-done some time in it's life".....This piece was re-barreled and re-blued. However this piece was born, it was now made to shoot, as they all were. But, this one was made to take to the club and the ranges and to enjoy.....What a concept....Value is in the eye of the beholder..............Rick Engel
 
#5 ·
Hi Anthony, I have no first hand experience with 1902 Swiss Lugers as I don't collect them, but I have done considerable research, including a survey of several hundred guns, on the halo question as it applies to Navy Lugers. I found that the first 10,000 approx. 1906 Navies produced (basically the no suffix guns) do not show barrel serial halos, meaning they were stamped prior to bluing. All subsequent guns, to the end of production in 1918, do have haloed barrel serials, which means they were stamped after bluing. This procedural change occurred in 1907/08.
Regards, Norm
 
#6 ·
Good morning Rick...could not agree more with your(your friend's) comment about all Swiss being redone, that certainly seems the norm...what I would like to explore further is your suggestion that this was re-barreled...

The 'value', if in fact re-barreled, is exponentially lower than if it was originally born with a Fat Barrel...there are not many Swiss Fat Barrels documented which makes them very rare...

Curious to know yours or others thoughts...

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Thank you Norm...that is helpful data for sure...while not specific to Swiss, it does speak to the DMW procedure...thank you for your input...
 
#7 ·
Good morning Rick...could not agree more with your(your friend's) comment about all Swiss being redone, that certainly seems the norm...what I would like to explore further is your suggestion that this was re-barreled...

The 'value', if in fact re-barreled, is exponentially lower than if it was originally born with a Fat Barrel...there are not many Swiss Fat Barrels documented which makes them very rare...

Curious to know yours or others thoughts...

- - - Updated - - -

Thank you Norm...that is helpful data for sure...while not specific to Swiss, it does speak to the DMW procedure...thank you for your input...
Putting aside "halos" vs. "non-halo", to conjecture that an early Swiss Parabellum was born with a 9m/mPara barrel is a bit of a leap....Did they ever consider adopting the Parabellum in 9m/m until about 35+ years later?...And, would they have chosen a Model 1900 as a test vehicle? If you can answer "yes" to those two questions, then you can believe this barrel was original to the gun.
 
#8 ·
I can't see much if any evidence of solder lines on the right side. A photo of the polished area under the safety lever would also be helpful.
 
#11 ·
Anthony,
A 1902 Swiss Fat Barrel is, as you probably know, a controversial piece. I have only seen one example first hand at the NAPCA show in Odessa,TX, in 1991. It was in Ralph Shattuck's display of Swiss Lugers. You can see that it is listed as #8 in the photo. I did not have an opportunity to pick it up and examine it closely and I do not know the serial number. There was some buzz at the show concerning its authenticity and the general consensus was "doubtful". Also in 2003 I saw some photos of #22084 that was changing hands that year for a reported $28K. Again, there was some question about its authenticity.
I have some opinions about your '02 Swiss but in order to make a better assessment I would really like to see clear straight-on photos of the frame and barrel serial numbers and profile shot of the front of the frame and barrel like the attached photo
Thank you,
Ron
 

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#12 · (Edited)
SN-22099 is a new SN for Dwight's Commercial Luger list. The v.5 (from 2014) does not have this entry.

There is a "Swiss FB" recorded on the List, SN-22084 with doubts about its authenticity as notes for this gun indicate the frame front was shaved. (This was a Reno gun show gun later re-sold out of San Mateo, CA.)


Finding any barrel underside photos of a FB gun of any variety is not an easy task.

Simpsons LTD has SN-22482 (AE variety) for sale.

And SN-22246, a M1902 Commercial (Danzig Test) FB Luger.
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#15 ·
The 3-digits on the back of the rear toggle link do not look promising either.

Photo is not the most-clear, but it appears the lead number has been messed with...maybe another number underneath the "0" and it is not typical to see factory numbers stamped here...in which you see 2 numbers under-the-blue (proper) but 1 number stamped after bluing displaying halo.

And some of the fonts of the "9" numbers on some of the small parts seem "off" in the shape of the number, too. Certainly when you look at the "9" shape on the frame front.

And maybe some other forced-numbers of other parts too...?
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#19 ·
Blown away by the knowledge on this forum...also so appreciative of those willing to share this knowledge!

Well, my brief courtship with this luger did not lead to marriage...I was 1 day into my 3 day inspection period and after the feedback, decided to let the luger go back to the seller...

I will say the firearm was beautiful...even if originally not a fat barrel, it was still wonderful to have possessed, albeit briefly...for the right price, it would have made a wonderful addition...I set my sights elsewhere and decided to get the Swiss 9mm with 6" barrel seen on my previous thread...

Take care all and happy holidays!
 
#23 ·
I think your decision to pass on the Swiss FB was probably a good idea. I am a bit dismayed that we didn't get good photographs of the serial numbers as I believe there was a good opportunity for a teaching point.
 
#20 ·
These so-called Swiss FB Lugers have perplexed me for some time.

And to follow-up Rick's comments in Post # 7...

I try to envision why we see Swiss chief inspector stampings on the left receiver flat of all the sighted Swiss FB's. Those are Ordnance acceptance stamps applied to contract pistols the Swiss military ordered.

Since previous researchers/authors (who had direct access to source materials in museums, etc) do not acknowledge any early interest in 9 mm Lugers, why do we have these M1900 with 9 mm fat barrels and with Swiss acceptance stamps ?

If DWM was just trying to interest the Swiss in a pistol with the new larger caliber, I could see the Germans maybe adding the Swiss chamber marking on a few guns for the Swiss to evaluate. But those "evaluation" guns should either be BUG proofed or have no proofing.

The Swiss chamber marking would be easy for DWM to do as they were in the middle of producing the first 5,000 military contract guns for the Swiss and would have the roll-die in the factory already.

The Swiss inspectors would not be involved in "inspecting & acceptance" stamping some "evaluation" Luger(s) that were offered to the Swiss as a possible marketing-gesture and that had nothing to do with the military contract and their acceptance role in those first 5,000 guns.

I think these Swiss FB's have the Swiss acceptance stamps as the "donor" receiver fork and maybe the toggle assembly did come from true Swiss Ordnance M1900 Lugers...that were put to use by the "mechanics" behind their "fabrication".

Pretty easy to start with a real, worn blank-chambered commercial fat barrel luger or an AE fat barrel Luger, swap out the receiver assembly, and add a "Swiss" cross to the side of the barrel and maybe refinish the gun altogether.

Certainly the 2-3 Swiss FB's I have seen come through the Reno Gun show were all "minty" offerings.

Spooky minty...
 
#29 ·
To amend, my final luger number #1263 is a 1914 DWM Artillery from my dear friend and mentor, George Anderson. Lugers have been a beautiful part of my life for for close to 20 years and wonderful friendship for over 16!!! God Bless You All My Valued Friends who have always been just click away!!! Eric
 
#30 ·
Thank you my friend! To amend, my final luger number #1263 is a 1914 DWM Artillery from my dear friend and mentor, George Anderson. Lugers have been a beautiful, wonderful part of my life for close to 20 years and our blessed wonderful friendships for just as long!! God Bless You All My Valued Friends who have always been just click away and had patience with my physical challenges~ Eric
 
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