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death head luger

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#1 ·
I have just came into possession of a mint death head luger all matching with deaths head marked holster the capture papers and documentation from the vet who brought it back to the 2 owners afer he sold it.
I also have a letter from a Hrr Kornmayer staff editor as of 6-1989 of the deutesches waffen journal talking about this luger and that there are only 5 known examples of a death head luger known.
What I was also told was that these pistols were issued to the commandants of the various concentration camps,what I am wanting to know is does anybody know if this is in fact the case.
IM trying to track down the captain's records who brought the gun back as to his unit.
The capture paper shows his unit as f.a hq. 5th t.d. gp which i cant figure out
any help would be great.
The clip in the gun matches the xtra one is a 3 digit number the take down tool is marked 42.
I also have a picture of the exact holster pictured in military holsters of ww#2 being out of the ralph shattuck colllection.
I do have photos however Im having a hard time trying to get the macro setting to get close enough to focus on the ss proofs so they come out clear enough.
One last question what would a ballpark figure on a value??
thanks again

military-1
 
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#52 ·
well Ron at least none of the forum members here were duped by this item.I know we are not supposed to be political but

The part that gets me about all this SS crap is people are still trying to make a fast buck out of all the stigma associated with the death head.

These characters did not treat the allied POW's of our countries soldiers very nice, even the wehrmacht had a higher sense of decency.

I hope that this luger rusts away in a dark hole.
 
#54 ·
Interestingly enough the ad does not SAY it is an "SS" marked pistol. It says it has a "Deaths Head" proof stamp on it.

I didn't know that Death had to proof his pistols? I figured Death would know his pistols from everyone elses. If Death is now proofing his pistols, who issued him an inspectors number. I looked at the pic and couldn't see an inspector's number, so I'm not convinced that Death actually inspected this one. I wouldn't shoot it though, if Death inspected this pistol and didn't stamp an inspector's number on it then technically it has not REALLY passed Death's rigid standards.

On the other hand, if someone stamped Death's proof mark on it AFTER the war, then I can understand why it does not have Death's inspector number stamped on it. Why would Death stamp an acceptance/inspector's number on a WWII pistol AFTER the war? Death had so much more work to do in other areas after the war that stamping his inpsector's numbers on this pistol would have had a low priority, so I think some lower world minion of Death, or some "booster" or fan of Death and the high price his work brings did the stamping without the knowledge of Death personally....I think that the stamping of this otherwise BEAUTIFUL and highly collectible pistol has ruined it's value to some extent and since Death does not look kindly to forgeries in his name, that the forger in this case and those who perpetuate this myth knowlingly will have a long a warm relationship with Death at some time in the future...possibly even sooner than they want to think.

You don't mess with Death...or his pistols....and you DON'T forge his logo on your stuff!
 
#55 ·
Jan, I don't think a low end collector would shell out 15 grand for this and if someone does...he should have bought a set of books from you before he did. 15 thousand dollars will buy some small grouping of respectable Lugers. He is way out of line on price so there is little danger it will sell to anyone. I suspect he will die with this in his possesion if he continues his present course of stinkin thinkin. Jerry Burney
 
#57 ·
Hi Jan,

Given the info. this poster received here, he still places an ad on Guns-America and claims his pricey piece is "rare and hard to find". Blatant lies, IMO...

Is this lack-of-character and honesty enough to get him banned from the Gun Board...so he does not use our "appraisal" services for free in the future and then disregards the sound expertly advice received and continues to attempt to bilk the unsuspecting.

This poster has many snake-like qualities...do we want him as a Member ?
 
#60 ·
The owner of this "SS Luger" always has table at SOS show (next isle and row, about 10 yards from Japanese collector of Japanese pistols) and I think there might be a chance to see the gun at next SOS in June 2006 or at next Indy 1500 show where he (A.K.A. "500 GUNS" -short fat guy with mustache) has a table right by the front door at Indy show and buying everything that is cheaper than dirt.
 
#61 ·
I spoke to the previous owner of this (maybe) death head Luger. I was given his name by the Guns America lister who was had no problems supplying history on it. The pistol is Mauser, serial #20, the previous owner (this gentleman) who purchased it in Angola Indiana in the 1980s from an individual, who had bought it from a "vet" who had brought it back with papers. The capture papers indicate nothing but a serial number of the pistol. The previous owner is adamant about it being a death head Luger, and indicates he tried to buy it back at a recent gun show for 9,500.00 , and the offer was declined. The wood case (GA picture) is not original, and was custom made during the period this person owned the pistol. This previous owner evidently knows Ralph Shattuck, he indicated Ralph is not "doing well" and is having others sell Lugers for him. He also indicated Mr. Shattuck at one time had one or more of these Lugers in his collection. Ok, hard evidence, could this pistol be a real vet death head bring back? Does anyone have any hard evidence on this pistol???? Could it???
 
#62 ·
quote:Originally posted by anderson659

...Ok, hard evidence, could this pistol be a real vet death head bring back? Does anyone have any hard evidence on this pistol???? Could it???
This an entire thread has many opinions on this, where he was trying to validate the luger and EVERY expert / person said that it was not real. For a 'real" death-head, it is simply too new... Read page 1 and see what they said...

Ed
 
#63 ·
Ed, no answer was offered to my questions. Death head symbols were common in Polish units prior to WW2 (G.S,. Hussars to name a few, and I have some), in Ukranian and Russian units, and probably others in eastern europe as well. The assumption that this is a concentration camp death head is speculation. The Poles also had swastikas for unit symbols during this period and before. Am I to say that a swastika from 1939 is German? NO. Polish units fighting in Italy and other places had the swastika as a symbol all through WW2. Germans troops could have fought anywhere depending on who they were.

It may be there were no death head concentration camp markings, that is not the issue, is there hard evidence, no other "death head" markings were ever made? Over a million men fought for the Germans on the eastern front that were not German, could a death head symbol be for someone in this time frame?
 
#65 ·
quote:Originally posted by anderson659

Ed, no answer was offered to my questions.
I am no expert on this area, but the concensus is that NO, these are false symbols, at least on this gun. I do not know of the other country symbols you refer to. Anything is possible, but I think the problem is that these symbols ahve been faked and atrributed to concentration camps, and it has not been shown to be true.

ed
 
#66 ·
This has been a very interesting discussion, but '659, I respectfully suggest that you are headed down the wrong road with, "The assumption that this is a concentration camp death head is speculation." It is speculation started by the seller. He is the one who should back it up. Asking others to prove that this is totally impossible is giant stretch of logic.
 
#67 ·
Anderson: If there is evidence that Polish or Ukrainian units used the DH symbol on thier Luger pistols, then we need to see pics of those if they are offered as proof that this system of markings existed during or pre-WWII. I ask that because it has been stated that the pistol in question has had it's proof stamps ground off and moved back to accomodate the DH stamping. This has been noted to be in the fashion of PROOF markings, not unit markings. Therefore I would go out on a limb here and say that I doubt that any DH marked Polish or Ukrainian Lugers that may surface would be marked in that location as PROOF marks.

I would wonder how anyone could insure that any particular Luger would have been in the possession of a "Polish" or "Ukrainian" SS unit in the first place, but that is not the discussion here. I would also like to see some DH marked Radom pistols as we could at least be looking at a pistol that was produced in Poland, not that we can guarantee that it was ever issued to a "Polish SS unit".

As I count it now, here is the chain of ownership:
1) 5th Tank Destroyer Captain bring-back 10/45 w/capture paper
2) the guy in Angola, IN in the 1980's
3) the "previous owner" who tried to buy it back
4) the seller

At this point, I'm still not convinced that a pistol marked in the proof area, with original proofs buffed out, restamped to accomodate the DH in that location, and reblued......and now 65 years later looks to have NO holster wear is the real McCoy. No holster wear? For a Camp Commandant, no less?

I also would like to be educated on the "Polish" and "Ukrainian" SS troops who marked their weapons with the DH.....I've never heard that and would like to see something definitive to prove that....

Not an attack, but whenever a "story" is introduced as "evidence" to back up another story or quetionable pistol, it needs to be vetted as well. If you can post the documentation or records about those other units and pictures of them in use during or before WWII, that would go a long way to convincing many of the possibility of this line of reasoning. Thanks.
 
#68 ·
Like Chuck, I would like to see back up material to Polish and Ukranian use of the deathshead prior to WWII. The only Eastern European use of the DH that I know of in modern times was by a Russian Regiment in 1917. England, Brunswick and Prussia all used it from the eighteenth century on and the English still do.
 
#69 ·
patentmike

Here is your quote---The assumption that this is a concentration camp death head is speculation." It is speculation started by the seller. He is the one who should back it up. Asking others to prove that this is totally impossible is giant stretch of logic.

I have to hand it to you, your reply sums up the whole question on validity, the onus or burden of proof falls on the original poster, a reference to this topic placed alongside of the selling add would have attached a level of integrity to the seller and he may have been lucky enough to have made a sale.

Any prospective buyer could have then been afforded an opportunity to consider several factors prior to shelling out a considerable sum of cash.
 
#70 ·
The Death Head badges etc. are common to Polish and Russian units. Take a look on Polish militaria by Wesolowski,(also on EBay big time)use the illustrated figures in his book of #948, 871, 873, 875, all WW1 or just after era, while looking, check out figure #938 an example of a "storm troop" detachment with death head from Poland. There are probably a dozen others and some from WW2, #749 is a fine example of a WW2 Death Head Polish example. Russian, Ukranian and cossack units used this symbol. As I understand it so did one or more German units in WW1. Common symbol. For Polish Swastikas before World War1 and during WW2 check out Wesolowski reference figures ,334,336,234,235,237 to name just a few.

My question is this, I have never seen( or heard of) a Polish (or Romanian, or Ukranian, or Serbian) marked Luger, yet all used them extensively. Yes, there are Polish pistols, Nazi proofed with the Polish Eagle, they were issued to SS troops, just like Browning pistols, who also had Nazi proofs. They also were carried by SS troops in Russia and everywhere else. It is history that World War1 German, Polish, Russian and others used the death head symbol among many regiments and outfits.

The opinions given on this particular pistol are not challenged by me, and I respect the expertise given, however, that is not the question I asked or implied, are there other death head possibilities out there? This pistol is irrelevant in that question, only as a reference. As an example, there are German regimental markings on many Lugers from WW1, one with a death head symbol for a particular regiment who had that symbol, would be correct. Where would I be wrong ?? Please help me out.
 
#71 ·
anderson 659

If you go back to the original post of the luger you will note that the luger is from the WW#2 era, in particular an 1940/42 code serial number 20.

In respect to your questions concerning, Roumanian,Polish and Serbian troops I believe these were German conscripts, either you join us and fight or you go to the camps for slave labour.Poland as you may be aware did not invade Germany or make the fatherland it's ally, Poland was basically persecuted in the initial throws of Nazi invasion.

The Hussars units were pre WW#1 units with the totenkopf insignia, after WW#1 the old soldiers that opposed the communist onslaught to Germany formed the freikorps to tackle this communism invasion, many of the Freikorps went on to become the SA stormtroopers. The old totenkopf insignia was carried on to the freikorps by these same soldiers.

Now you bump this up to the Third Reich era and you have the infamous SS with the deathhead on thier caps and badges.

Lugers themselves were regulated just the same as all German ordanance and small arms, the small arms had to be inspected and proofed--ie the stamps of the period eagle 135, eagle 655, eagle/swastika, what the members are saying is that the SS were not above the proofing laws of the day and had to have sidearms officially accepted, SS runes and the totenkopf insignia are not official acceptances/proofs.

Factories that were overun by the Nazi's were utilized by the Germans to supply the growing needs of German troops, the WaA inspectors were installed in these factories to accept or reject the pistols produced in occupied countries, this is why you see Polish Radoms,Hi-powers,CZ's and the like with nazi inspector acceptances.

The fact that luger serial number 20 has had it's acceptances removed and placed further along the receiver causes this particular luger to be suspect, had the booster left the original WaA stamps alone they would have been better off.

You will note that the right hand forward part of an lugers receiver was the official place for the inspectors acceptances, nothing else in the researched documents on lugers stipulates other markings were permissable.

The story coupled with the luger has so many holes that the swiss would be in competition for the finest of cheese.

In order to fully absorb the contents of what is bieng said in this topic it is important that you look at history, the manner in which the Germans accepted their small arms,the earlier totenkopf insignia compared to the one in the photo of the WW#2 holster against the Freikorp photo from WW#1, greed in todays world supported by the price attached to the luger in the Guns/America add.

This obviously does not fully answer your question of other death head marked weapons but it is the lack of them on small arms that begs the question pertaining to the originality of the luger that was referenced.

I hope that this reply has cleared up a bit of your concerns,if possible could you post some photos of the polish troops with the deathhead insignia.
 
#72 ·
anderson 659 and lugerlou and others, this is kind of apples and oranges. To this luger it doesn't pertain, as the stamp on the luger itself is obviously bogus on the right. I think that it is possible other items were marked by the polish, etc., but we would have to see specific stampings and compare them to the ones we see on luger holsters.


Ed
 
#73 ·
LugerLou,

The gun in question has had a fork stuck in it. Take a look at Polish militaria,(polishmilitaria.com) by Wesolowski, a noted Polish reference for Polish medals and awards,death heads were common symbols in WW2. Please check out the illustrations, and he has many on Ebay and his personal site for sale under the numbers I listed with a photo( #749, #799). He is a much better reference than my personal pictures . There were more than a few "death head" symbols among the Polish troops in WW2, I listed one just for illustration. There were other "death head" troops as well among other belligerents, and the Polish who wore the swastika before WW2, at the time of the Nazi's in many regiments, and others during the war with the Nazi's.

Again, I have no quarrel with the conclusion on the gun. I asked two questions, is there other death head possibilities, and my hypothetical about the WW1 Luger, I still hope someone can answer either one.
 
#74 ·
Anderson659
1) Although some Imperial German units used Death Head insignias in various accoutrements, cap insignias for instance, there is no evidence that issue Imperial handguns were ever marked with a death head. Purported P08 pistols so marked are very questionable and if not outright fakes were marked after 1918.
2) Nazi proofed Polish weapons, such as the Radom, are proofed with a Nazi, not Polish, eagle.
3) Lugers could have been marked with the stars and bars, but they were not. However if there was a market for CSA marked WWII equipment it would show up on Ebay
 
#75 ·
quote:Originally posted by Heinz

Anderson659

3) Lugers could have been marked with the stars and bars, but they were not. However if there was a market for CSA marked WWII equipment it would show up on Ebay
Heinz, not the Stars and Bars and not a Luger but close enough...

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