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Thread: A Radom Rig with photos.

  1. #1
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    Default A Radom Rig with photos.

    VIS M1935 (RADOM)(P.35p)-- The proper identification of this pistol according to Jan Still's book on "Axis Pistols".

    This is a Grade II German Radom pistol in the first alphabet series, serial number N5075, manufactured in either the first or second quarter of 1942. The German Military acceptance stamps (Eagle) E/77 and E/623 are present on this gun.

    The E/77 was a German Military acceptance mark (manufacturer's code) for the Radom Factory while the E/623 (manufacturer's code) was the German Military acceptance mark for Steyr-Daimler-Puch Werke.(Austria)

    After the German Military occupation of Poland in September 1939, personal from the Steyr-Daimler-Puch Factory in Steyr, Austria, went to Radom to oversee production of the VIS pistol. They supervised certain aspects of the Radom Factory until the Russians occupied Radom in mid 1944.

    This particular series of Radom pistols was finished in military-blue.


    Download Attachment: [img]images/icon_paperclip.gif[/img] Cropped sized Radom Pistol with holster and mags left side 017.jpg
    294.18*KB


    Download Attachment: [img]images/icon_paperclip.gif[/img] Cropped resized front Radom Holster 02.jpg
    274.15*KB


    Download Attachment: [img]images/icon_paperclip.gif[/img] Cropped resized Radom Holster Rear 006 008.jpg
    229.71*KB

    The flap markings show a faint "bnz"... a Steyr-Daimler-Puch manufacturer's code , P.35(p)..the Pistol model , and an Army Acceptance stamp. (which is not always seen on these holsters). Any trace of a date marking is obscured.

    Download Attachment: [img]images/icon_paperclip.gif[/img] Cropped resized flap open shows
    lifting strap Radom Holster 011.jpg

    277.29*KB

    I have three magazines for this gun;
    -one magazine is unmarked
    -one magazine is marked E/189 on the bottom of the floor plate which I understand is the code for the "Warsaw Rifle Factory"
    -one magazine is marked "77" on the bottom of the floor plate. (see a possible explanation below.)


    Download Attachment: [img]images/icon_paperclip.gif[/img] Cropped resized 77 and E 189 marked magazines.JPG
    268.44*KB


    Download Attachment: [img]images/icon_paperclip.gif[/img] Cropped resized right slide markings Radom Pistol 012.jpg
    286.47*KB


    Download Attachment: [img]images/icon_paperclip.gif[/img] Cropped resized full right side 007.jpg
    266.49*KB

    Thanks for looking.
    David

  2. #2
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    David,

    Very,very nice "rig". If I were to venture a "guess" about the "77" marked mag I would say it might be a post war East German marking.

    Mark

  3. #3
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    Mark thanks for your response and kind comment.

    Your suggestion that the magazine could possibly be post war got me thinking of an e-mail communication I had several years ago with a very knowledgeable fellow on Radoms relating to this mag.
    This gentleman was in the midst of, or, planning to wite a book on the Radom Pistol.
    I dug back into my old e-mails at my office and I found that communication (word for word) which I have attached below. You might find his comments interesting....I had totally forgotten about it until you made your comment above.

    RE: Radom "77" marked magazine
    "It seems these came to light in the last few years. All the Original Polish mags had an OVAL and inspector mark inside the oval ( D2, B3,S5 etc ) on bottom of mag.
    When Germany started the re-production, they eliminated the Polish marks and bottom was plain.

    When the Germans reached Warsaw they got the Warsaw Rifle Factory going and a bit later the Eagle/189 mags were produced there.

    When Russia came into Poland , Warsaw was the first to go..Few e/189 mags,,, After Radom was taken, all mags were made near Steyr, Austria.. A small 623 was stamped on the side of the mag. near the base.

    After the war German Police used the Radom and ALL parts had to have markings.. They even stamped the serial # on the outside of the slide.

    My EDUCATED thought is this is where the 77 was done.. Even some mags of this era have pencil engraved serial numbers on the side of the mag.. Germany Military did VERY LITTLE deviation as to marks and it stands to reason that they would not bother putting a 77 on the mag when their prime goal was to make things go faster.. Hope this helps."

    My response;

    Al, many thanks for your expanded response to my question. I was hoping it was German wartime production, and I took a chance when I bid on E-bay. (I bought one of the two mags that were available and I suspect I paid an excessive price for it)
    Thanks
    David

    His response;

    "Hi David, Never too much, you got one and that is the main point.. It might be worth more than the others, WHO HAS ONE ?? Maybe just you & I,,,..Al"

    -------End of story.


    Mark, I have another question....what are the markings shown in the photo below on the right trigger guard frame?


    Download Attachment: [img]images/icon_paperclip.gif[/img] Cropped resized right trigger guard markings 005.jpg
    230.35*KB

    I have also attached another photo of the firing proof and e/623 Steyr acceptance marking that vaporized in the resizing of the photo above.


    Download Attachment: [img]images/icon_paperclip.gif[/img] Cropped resized Firing Proof and e623 012.jpg
    275.84*KB

    Regards
    David

  4. #4
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    David,

    I collect East German reworked WWII pistols and the stamping is indicative of what I have seen on other mags. The markings are electric pencilled as well as stamped, they usually represent the last two or three digits of the serial number for the original reworked pistol.

    As far as the trigger guard markings go? I don't have a clue!

    Mark

  5. #5
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    David,

    Nice "rig", wish it were mine.

    The little marks at the trigger guard area are assemblers, machinist, production inspectors, etc. marks. Kinda like I made this or I inspected this and it meets specs. They are in house production stuff seperate from WaA doings.

    Francis
    Francis

    VIS35....aka/Blind Hog
    "Even a Blind Hog sometimes finds an acorn"

  6. #6
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    Mark and Francis , I very much appreciate your comments and insight on these subjects.
    I can't be the only collector puzzeled by some of these issues, so,....on behalf of those of us that may have been wondering about this stuff...thanks.
    These questions are finally becoming demystified for me.
    David

  7. #7
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    And it might be so simple as - that the 77 on the magazine was stamped by the same man who stamped E/77 on the slide and E/77 on the frame.

  8. #8
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    Are there any recent research books on the Radom?

    The ones on the FN pistols are not very complete, but those on the lugers are fairly detailed.

  9. #9
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    Herman, your logic is unassailable. I totally agree with your thoughts.

  10. #10
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    Randy Bessler just recently posted quite a few Radoms for sale on is web site if folks are looking for some :

    http://www.collectorfirearms.us/


    Best Regards, Pete...

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