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1918 Erfurt Artillery ?

5K views 28 replies 11 participants last post by  Edward Tinker 
#1 ·
Did Erfurt ever produce any Artillery Lugers in 1918?
Was 1914 the only year they made artillery models?
 
#5 ·
Kurt... thank you for the correction I looked at Lugers ad Random page 173 shows a picture of a 1914 Erfurt Artillery and also states manufactured 1914 through 1918 above chamber. This is the only experience I have with Erfurt Artilleries so I really was expecting a rebuttal.
Happy Hunting!
Peter
 
#6 ·
Correct, Erfurt L P08 made only in 1914; but after 1916 nearly all Erfurt receivers had the flat for the artillery rear sight, this sometimes leads to confusion. DWM made the L P08 from 1914 through 1918.
 
#7 ·
Well...this seller thinks a 1918 Erfurt LP08 is worth selling.

Calls it a restoration...but it is an "assemblage" as well.

And am pretty sure Erfurt never applied their inspection stamp on the side plate at that location...

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/628034082
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#9 ·
It was not a "bargain" at $2k , but a nicely restored artillery, though not original by any stretch.
I think the finish and markings look like Lugerman's work; that kind of work probably cost someone near $500.

I'd have been tempted at $1000, if I didn't already have a reblued shooter 1914 Erfurt art'y.
 
#11 ·
Did DWM even make adjustable rear sights in 1918? I thought they were discontinued mid-1917. Never heard of lP-08 made by Erfurt marked 1914.
On the fine tune rear sight, it was phased out in 1917- which is not to say that perhaps one or a hundred might have found their way onto a 1918 receiver. There are examples of the fine tune Front sight in 1918 though, many are documented and I have one- so they were "using up" parts in 1918 from earlier.

As to a 1914 Erfurt LPO8, they are well documented and pictured; in fact 1914 was the only year Erfurt made the Long P 08.
I guess you missed that chapter in the several books where they are shown.

Here are two.
 

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#13 ·
Nick,

I read your previous posting as a simple "typo". Figured you knew more about LP08's.


BTW...no one commented on the very non-regulation "1918" date stamping on the G-B offered gun. Especially when you take a look at the shape of the " 8 " number. It sort of looks like snowman on the front yard in winter.

Even with a refinish, you have to wonder why just about every number and proof stamp on the gun had to be completely re-stamped.

Seems unusual or the mechanic was just heavy-handed...but then he would have to have a collection of lots of stamps to compensate. Easier to just lightly work the metal near the stampings and let the original stampings speak for themselves.

And the receiver "notch" on this example on G-B stands out as different than these other 1918 Erfurt examples, below.

Not only in overall shape of the "notch" but where the ends of the "arc" terminate on the other 1918 Erfurt examples.

G-B gun looks like a DWM receiver / notch.

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#16 ·
The "refreshed" markings on the refinished piece all appear to me to be engraved not stamped- which can/could explain their "different" appearance.

Excuse me for mis-understanding, but if Nick didn't mean L P08, the comment escapes me all together?
There are 1918 Erfurt pistols posted regularly here.
 
#19 ·
The description on the auction clearly states that the gun is restored and that "I don't believe Erfurt ever made a 1918 Artillery" I then state that it would therefore have to have been re-barreled. I admit that I didn't do a lot of research on it as I assumed it was an $800 shooter luger and told the seller that when he brought it to me to sell for him. I actually have a brisk demand for shooter grade guns and literally cant keep them in stock. I have a nickel plated Artillery coming up next you guys can feel free to poke holes in as well. I list these guns at $1. and am not trying to fool anyone. It's not my fault that people bid them up as they do, but I will take it.

A comment like "Well...this seller thinks a 1918 Erfurt LP08 is worth selling. Calls it a restoration...but it is an "assemblage" as well." is just mean spirited and unnecessary.
 
#21 ·
Of course it is "worth selling", and no accounting for what folks pay. Tom said everything he should have to describe it, IMO.

Funny(maybe not so funny for the next buyer) thing is that another "luger dealer" bought it; I'll bet dollars to donuts it will be offered as a "rare,matching 1918 Erfurt Artillery luger" in the not so distant future on another selling venue!

Those interested can take a look at the Bid History on the GB auction link earlier in this thread to see where it went. ;)
 
#22 ·
Don,

The opening line of the sales-ad states :

" This is an artillery model Erfurt luger, dated 1918 above the chamber. "

It clearly is and never was a real Erfurt Luger that left the Erfurt factory and just got rebarreled and refinished along the way.

It is an "assemblage" (of both DWM and some Erfurt parts) conceived to deceive some un-lucky buyer and separate him from his monies.

In our home, that is what we consider "mean spirited".

Some "mechanic" took some measures to try to make it look legit...but luckily his skill level fell way, way short and hopefully kept some collectors out of the bidding.

The newer member in his Opening Post may have learned some info. and stayed out of the bidding, too.


Similar situation with the sale of this HK Luger SN-P183...for sale ironically at the same time the real SN-P183 (HK collector John Dunkle's old gun) was for sale with the Simpson LTD shop :

http://luger.gunboards.com/showthread.php?65073-Two-P183-HK-Guns

Sure one can make money selling all sorts of junk. But is it the right thing to do ? (Rhetorical)
 
#25 ·
Pete, I can read just fine- thank you very much.

If you want to selectively extract quotes you certainly can- but don't forget the
"I don't think Erfurt made artillery lugers in 1918"; "appears to be a restoration"; or "barrel replaced" part either.
You might find fault with the qualification "appears", but many are hesitant to say that any "thing" in the luger world is 100% for sure.

Junk is in the eye of the beholder, so before you get too much "holier" than the rest of us, just remember that please.
The restored artillery I sold Spacecoast was much uglier than that one, so I guess I'm totally guilty in your eyes of selling "stuff" that does not deserve to be sold! and by that implication - should not be owned either.:(
 
#23 ·
I am not defending anyone here but I have to say it wasn't too many years ago any kind of Artillery top cannon to cobble together a shooter was $12-1500. Not sure what one goes for today as I have not seen one for sale recently. But regardless of the rest of all this..it's a pretty shooter for sensible money. Auctions are auctions for a reason. The seller is looking for a buyer and hopefully one that as auctions go..will pay the highest price. IMO Tom did everything necessary to price/$1.00 and describe the pistol adequately and IMO it sold for just about what it is worth. Yes Tom is a dealer..he has always treated me fairly and from what others I talk to say, stands behind his offerings 100% I often wonder about people who pay 64 million dollars for an oil painting of an orange dot on a blue background. But an auction is an auction. No one standing there with a gun in his back forcing the buyer. I think all of us have bought and sold stuff for more than it was worth. The gun is what it is, no doubt of that. But to blame the seller for what it sells for at an auction seems silly to me. There is an old saying I live by..let the buyer beware. I have seen both sides of that coin..but that's the stuff dreams are made of..it's life. Get used to it.
 
#24 ·
I am not defending anyone here but I have to say it wasn't too many years ago any kind of Artillery top cannon to cobble together a shooter was $12-1500. Not sure what one goes for today as I have not seen one for sale recently.
Jerry -

Don Voigt offered his refinished 1917 DWM top end with a newly made artillery barrel for $795 complete. I ended up buying the receiver and barrel (with rear artillery sight) for $550. The entire gun was priced at $1435.

http://luger.gunboards.com/showthre...-whole-or-quot-parts-quot&p=455049#post455049

I often wonder about people who pay 64 million dollars for an oil painting of an orange dot on a blue background
Probably Gator fans, they are thick around here. :)
 
#26 ·
Don,

What you sold Mark seemed to be authentic LP08 parts.

What was sold on G-B was never a LP08 and was never even a plain old P-08 honest Erfurt gun with just a barrel swap-out and a re-do.

It is a hybrid of Erfurt and DWM parts...just a parts guns...with lots of odd proof marks added and odd numbers added to make it look all matching and all Erfurt-like. That is the deception on the part of the "mechanic"...IMHO.

If that floats a buyer's boat...that is fine. It is their money to spend. Will be curious to see it on "Walt's" web site for sale in the future.

Our OP poster was asking and some of us tried to step up to help figure it out.


And by the way...the "1918" on the chamber is not DWM-like in terms of number fonts, either.

So that non-Erfurt receiver fork is not even originally a 1918-Dated DWM receiver. My guess...a blank-chambered part.
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#27 ·
Pete ,
you seem to have conflated the "sins" of the mechanic/restorer/humper to be those of the seller- if you really think Legacy did the work say so. If not- just let it go as a "restoration", if even one piece came from an original artillery, it is a restoration.

But I don't see that it matters that it was cobbled together from ten pistols or one, and then made to look nice. I think most if not all the parts are "authentic" luger parts, but then that makes no difference either- the barrel may be new made- in fact I think it is.
Restorations and repairs often use "replacement" made parts. It is not a fake, as no originals of such exist(that we know of)- so at worst it is a "fantasy" artillery luger.

I do not see any basic difference between my hodge podge, assembled Artillery that I sold Spacecoast and this one.

We all told the OP the 1918 Erfurt Artillery was not "right"; as we should have.

Whether or not the receiver was a "surplus" or "un-used" or "blank chamber" DWM part makes no difference; I said in my post that all the markings looked to have been engraved, and still do- but again it was and is a restoration and that is the way some "restore" markings.

Would you have the same objection to the sale of the piece if it had sold for $100?
 
#28 ·
I am about the least "mechanical" guy you will meet. I don't refinish or screw with guns but I do sell guns for my friends and regular customers. I sell about 40 guns a week and one of my most common complaints is that I don't even clean the bores before mailing them out. I find Pete's inability to just let this go to be petty and insulting. I would respectfully request that Ed close this thread so we can put this issue to rest. I believe we described this gun accurately but understand that it may have not been up to some peoples high standards. I was in Florida enjoying my semi - retirement when my 26 year old new employee did this listing, so congratulations Pete. You have successfully out-witted a young man just getting started in this hobby. I personally think he's doing a great job.
 
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