Hey everyone so I wanted to specifically ask the Navy experts in the forum their opinion on this Luger. I broke it down and took a lot of pictures. I will most likely return it since I was told it's been refinished by other posters. I did find the the Rock Island Auction listing and it said professionally restored. They gentlemen I got it from still says he thinks it's the original rust blue and in some of the Luger books show examples without some of the proof marks. Anyways sorry to keep posting about this. This will be the last one. Thanks
When you have been collecting Lugers for years as many of the members here have it becomes second nature to know the difference between a re finish and original finish Luger. Their are all kinds of things to look for. Pictures can be tricky but a hands on inspection settles any questions and is always the best.
I might try to get it appraised. The gentleman that I traded with also has have a DWM 1906 American Eagle fat barrel or 1900 DWM Swiss contact Luger both in good condition and not refinished.
RIAC's price was a reference point. How much was RIAC price? After being refurbished, it becomes an item leaning toward lower end. Usually, lower end item is extremely sensitive to price.
Probably time to buckle-down and dig into the research and info. available on these forums with a "search" function.
Some areas you may want to spend time on :
1. Patina and oxidation - Good search topic to become familiar with and to know what it looks like on a gun 100+ years old.
2. Rear toggle pin flange size on Navy Lugers...small flange versus large flange and what is expected on an early-ish M1906 Navy ? (See photo example below of both sizes of toggle pin flanges.)
3. Should the small C/M on the barrel underside show "halo" or not...on an early-ish M1906 Navy ? Similar question for the SN at the same location.
4. Should another number of the SN be stamped on the bottom of the receiver...just in front of the receiver lug with its two numbers of "53" already stamped there ?
5. "Dimple" or "nipple" shape of the top of the toggle pin that runs through the left toggle knob. (See photo below for an example of this important feature on an original finish gun.)
Other areas of study that our Navy folks could suggest for you...
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Very thoughtful, Pete. I'd also suggest the following area's to explore:
1. The crown/M '3 lobe' or 'pentagon' crown types proofs found on '06' receivers and the proper serial number range for them.
2. Halo's on under- barrel markings, define and when they are appropriate.
3. Slant of polished safety bar and length of adjacent blued sear bar on various models. See a Navy Luger parts drawing for location.
4. More come to mind. Ultimately, get or borrow a set of Görtz-Sturgess books on the Parabellum. Enjoy the homework!
Hi Mike,
The only possible scenario which could possibly explain those missing proof and inspection marks would be if there was a capital C below the serial number on the front of the frame, but I can't see one in the murky photo you have provided. Please take a look and report back.
Thanks, Norm
...They gentlemen I got it from still says he thinks it's the original rust blue and in some of the Luger books show examples without some of the proof marks...
From this comment and your post about the Swiss and "Fat Barrel", this Gentleman does not know what he is talking about. I respectfully recommend that you get whatever you can for your return and discontinue doing business with him. There are reputable Luger sources out there, some dealers and some individual collectors. You can get a good selection of recommendations from the members of this Forum.
First of all I really appreciate all your input. It's a big help. So I sat down today with the pistol and the amazing reference, Pistole Parabellum. Read the section P.04 Navy Lugers and learned a ton. Grabbed my Boley gauge and compared measurements and location of serial numbers. The measurements and serial numbers show it's a Unaltered first issue. It states in the book that some of the first batch Navy P.04s were dirverted and sold as commercials or contracts. Those might not have all the navy proof marks. As one of the previous posts mentioned a C would have been placed under the barrel serial number. The book specifically mentioned that the C was stamped through the blueing after finishing which would make it more likely to be removed in the restoration. I included the paragraphs explaining this in the attachments. So I agree it's been refinished but it has a potential to be a very rare gun. I am sure one of the couple hundred that were diverted to commercial and still had the original finish would demand a very high price. Even though it's been refinished it might be worth what I have in it. Plus it's a piece of history. Appreciate your thoughts. Thanks!
Hi Mike,
My thoughts? It's difficult, impossible actually, to prove the authenticity of a collectible object once it's single identifying feature has been removed. What your left with is a very beautiful Navy shooter, worth possibly $3,000.00 to the right buyer.
Norm
It's highly unlikely that a C would have been completely removed by refinishing, but you seem that have your mind made up. Given that your Czechmate might be worth 2 grand, you did OK. Keep it and move on WBMA.
IMHO, there was never a "C" stamped below that number. I have seen quite a few multiply-refinished "C" suffix 1908 Bulgarians (much more buffed than this gun) where some portion of the C is still visible. It doesn't matter if it was stamped before or after the bluing, it's not like the Germans put it on there with a laser scribe.
Whether it is struck before or after bluing doesn't change the depth or durability of a mark. As others have pointed out, the few "C" marked pistols were stamped both on the frame and barrel. It is extremely unlikely that both could have been removed with almost no effect on the adjacent numbers.
Things just don't add up with the missing proof mark. If this is an original firearm someone took a lot of time restoring it. Doesn't make sense that they would remove the proof mark.
Hi Mike,
It's not a question of one missing mark, it's five. The barrel, receiver and breech-block are each missing a Crown proof mark and the receiver is missing two Crown/M inspection marks.
Norm
Well guess it's time for it to go back. This got be hooked on Navy Lugers. Will have to find a more original one. Only seen them at Phenoix or Simpson so far.
Thanks for all the input. It will be going back to its owner next week. Looks like a sizable investment to get a non restored Navy. They are such cool firearms though!
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