Russian DWM Luger

[Vlim]

I followed this discussion with great interest, and a frowned eyebrow here and there when the testosterone started playing up here and there. But overall it remains interesting.

Allow me to throw some oil on the fire

One of the aspects I miss in the discussion is that of the cartel agreement between Steyr and the Loewe companies of DWM/Mauser/FN which was first signed in 1904 and extended in 1907. The cartel agreement between Steyr and the 'Loewe group' (shorter to write) effectively ended with the start of WW1 in 1914.

This cartel agreement divided the European and Eurasian market between the companies involved in the following manner:

FN: Had the right to the market in Belgium and Belgian Congo.
DWM/Mauser: Had the right to the market in Germany.
Steyr: Had the right to the market in Austro-Hungary.

Basically, the local companies got to serve their local customers. Nothing fancy sofar.

Now it gets interesting:
As of 1904, Steyr got the market in Greece and Serbia.
As of 1907, DWM/Mauser kept the market in Turkey and got Spain.
As of 1907, Steyr also got the Bulgarian and Romanian markets!!

So, basically:
Between 1904 and 1914 Steyr was the exclusive deliverer to:
Austro-Hungary (Cartel 1904-1914)
Bulgaria (Cartel 1907-1914)
Romania (Cartel 1907-1914)
Greece (Cartel 1904-1914)
Serbia (Cartel 1904-1914)

There is at least one documented case where Mauser was allowed to deliver 32,000 rifles to Serbia in 1910, but it was a cooperation with Steyr.

So, if DWM officially delivered P08's to Bulgaria AFTER 1907 and BEFORE 1914, it would have been in lliason, and under agreement, with Steyr.

So perhaps the crossed 'Mosin Nagants' are actually crossed 'Steyr Mannlichers'

Sources:
Wolfgang Seel, Mauser, von der Wffenschmiede zum Weltunternehmen, 1988
Jonathan A. Grant, The arms trade in Eastern Europe, 1870-1914, Girding for Battle, 2003
Personal archives, letter from DWM to Greek Consulate in Berlin dated 1904

[norme]

Dear Vlim, You may have provided a possible reason for DWM being "stuck" with a quantity of Cyrillic marked frames. They may have been intended for Bulgaria when the cartel agreement came into force (see my previously unsupported hypothesis Post#154). Regards, Norm

[Pavlov]

Originally Posted by norme

... Cyrillic marked frames. ...

As I already pointed out, the term "Cyrillic marked" is pretty nondescript since there are several countries that use the Cyrillic alphabet, yet they use different languages. At that time these countries were Bulgaria, Serbia, Montenegro and Russia.

[Luger1900]

Hello Vlim,

Thank you for the additional 'political' information that you provided above. Maybe the crossed rifles were designed after Steyr-Mannlicher rifles instead of M-N rifles! If that reasoning is accepted, then the 'Russian theory' which binds closely to the characteristics of the crossed rifles continues to lose more air. In my opinion, it does not really matter, because these crossed rifles represent an infantry organization.

One point I would like to mention is the existence of previous sales from both DWM and Mauser to this region before the start of this cartel arrangement until the creation of the M1908 Bulgarian Infantry Officers Luger. Mauser was doing business with Turkey (selling Mauser rifles and a small contract of Mauser C96 pistols) and DWM was doing business with Bulgaria starting in 1903 (selling 1,000 M1900/03 Lugers to Bulgaria).

Your historical input is always welcome.

Thanks,
Albert

[norme]

Dear Albert, This is in reply to your Post #170. I have been trying to follow up on your suggestion that I travel to Russia to "show people in the street" a Russian Luger. Unfortunately, I am unable to work such a trip into my busy schedule. Also, I do not own a Russian Luger! Regards, Norman

[Pavlov]

Originally Posted by Vlim

...So perhaps the crossed 'Mosin Nagants' are actually crossed 'Steyr Mannlichers'

Let's do another fitting session!

Mannlicher Repetiergewehr M.1886, 1886/90, 1888, 1888/90, 1890:



Repetiergewehr Mannlicher M.1895:



Geveer M95 KNIL (Dutch)



Mannlicher Mo.1896:




Sorry, couldn't resist the crossed rifles discussion...

[Ron Wood]

Nick,
Nothing at all to be sorry about. In addition to giving us look at some great rifles, you saved me from having to post an example of the Steyr-Mannlicher with its distinctive magazine housing and straight rear stock. Thanks!

[Vlim]

Well, one thing that got my attention was a piece of Pavlov's translation of the Bulgarian documentation:

Here is a scan from the modest information I have in my personal possession. It shows that when the First Balkan War started in 1912, the Bulgarian Army had 4,450 "Parabellum" pistols, "of which 1,000 model 1903 in cal. 7.65, the rest being model 1911 in caliber 9 mm".

The model 1911 (Bulgarian 9mm pistol), provided it was accepted in 1911, would have had to be delivered to Bulgaria in cooperation with Steyr, as it fell right into the 1907-1914 cartel era.

ps: The defacing of the Bulgarian lugers that ended up on the US surplus market was done by Interarms in the 1970s. The main reason was that they had imported them as 'German pistols', but they failed to mention that they bought them from an Eastern-Block country. In order to avoid too much commotion they machined out the Bulgarian crest on the toggles and sold them cheaper, while still taking a nice profit.

[Ron Wood]

To paraphrase Mark Twain, rumors of the demise of the Russian Luger are greatly exaggerated!

Albert has done a fine, and to much extent plausible, analysis of the origin of the Model 1906 Luger with the crossed rifle chamber inscription. I would like to pursue his lines of reasoning.

The lengthy historical account of Tsar Ferdinand I and his military connections is quite well done. When I first started to read it I immediately thought of the highly detailed “histories” furnished by some gun sellers to hype their fabulous wares. But that is not the case here. We did have to wade through quite a bit of background to get to the noteworthy connection of Tsar Ferdinand I with the 54th His Majesty the Tsar of Bulgaria Infantry Regiment. The Imperial era pretty much marked the end of military knighthood and the age of warrior kings. Nearly every crowned head in Europe was the honorary/titular “commander” of one military unit or another. Probably at the top of the heap was Crown Prince Wilhelm of Germany, “commander” of the 1st Leib Hussar Regiment, and his sister Princess Victoria Louise, “commander” of the 2nd Leib Hussar Regiment. The actual commander of the Hussars was Field Marshall August von Mackensen, who earned his rank. (Sorry about the digression…the Leib Hussars and old Mack are favorite subjects of mine!) Anyway, such honorary commands were largely an excuse to get dressed up for ceremonial occasions and few, if any, of these honorary leaders had much actual “field” command duty. So Tsar Ferdinand’s active involvement in procurement of a special lot of Lugers for Bulgarian officers in the 54th is speculative at best.

Regarding the use of a national crest on Lugers of the Imperial era, let’s take a look at the crested examples. The Swiss, Bulgarian and American Eagle Lugers do indeed sport likenesses of their respective national crests. However, the contract Lugers of Germany, Portugal (CI, M2, Royal Navy, R.P. Navy) and Bolivia, while bearing chamber markings, do not have a national emblem. The Dutch, Brazilian and Mexican contracts have no chamber markings. So across the board, the use of a national crest on a contract Luger appears to be an exception (or at least the minority) rather than the rule.

Now let’s address those pesky rifles. In the light of the foregoing paragraph, there is no reason indeed to associate the crossed rifle Lugers with a particular nation based on the presence of the rifles alone. As has been discussed, it is most likely that the crossed rifles indicate intended use by infantry. However, reluctant recognition of the type of rifle, albeit still with reservations, favors identification as Mosin-Nagant. A number of people, me included, have no hesitation in this identification. So one would wonder why Tsar Ferdinand would choose a rifle that only constituted 13% of the total long arms inventory to be the insignia on the chamber of Lugers intended for the Bulgarian officers. The type of rifle notwithstanding, why would he choose to arm his officers with this variant when he had at least 4,450 lovely Lugers with the national crest on hand? I have difficulty in visualizing Tsar Ferdinand pandering to the Russians by equipping his officers with a Luger that would not be readily identified as Bulgarian, particularly since he already had the aforementioned Bulgarian Lugers.

We arrive at last at the lynchpin about which much of the Bulgarian connection revolves: the Cyrillic markings. It has long been acknowledged that the safety marking on the crossed cannon Lugers is Bulgarian. Reasons for this have ranged from “unknown” to “…it is possible that the order from Russia gave the wrong markings, or else the German die cutter and inspector had tangle with something equivalent to out Tennessee Corn (the liquid type) and stamped the frames with the wrong die. Being from Tennessee, I am inclined to accept the latter reason” (a bit of tongue in cheek by Harry Jones in 1959)! John Walter in Luger, an illustrated history of the handguns of Hugo Borchardt and Georg Luger , 1875 to the present day (1977) stated that “The surviving ‘Russian’ weapons are actually of modified Bulgarian type, owing to the non-Russian safety marks”. In his later book The Luger Book (1986), this notion is amended to; “It is popularly believed that the surviving Russian guns are of ‘Bulgarian’ type, owing to subtle differences between the two languages. However, as linguists have now pointed out, there was no difference at all between Russian and Bulgarian until the former was modernized in the early 1902s.” He was off by a few years on the date of the standardization of the Russian alphabet, and obviously he was referring to the safety markings as having “no difference at all” as there were certainly considerable differences between the two languages! This explanation of the identical safety markings was provided to me independently by an older Russian gentleman who indicated the word was the same in both language and meant “fire”. This was long before either he or I was aware of Walter’s writing (my earliest exposure to the Russian Luger and its markings was via Harry Jones’ book Luger Variations (1959)). Much later (a couple of years ago) I received further reinforcement of this notion from a student of Russian who did translation work. I showed him examples of Russian and Bulgarian Model 1906 Lugers. He quickly identified the Russian extractor as “a Russian word meaning “a charge”. It is pronounced "zar-yad". It's actually written in old Russian (pre-1917)”. He was unable to decipher the Bulgarian extractor marking. Then looking at the safety markings, he thought for a moment and stated “Actually, the markings on the Russian safety are in Bulgarian. As far as my Bulgarian goes, it is pronounced as uh-go-n (with soft "n" at the end) both in Russian and in Bulgarian”. Not a lot of authority in that pronouncement, but it does suggest that the safety marking is sufficiently bilingual for a modicum of recognition, even for a non-Bulgarian speaker. Another troublesome aspect, to me, regarding the two different extractor markings is why in the world would Tsar Ferdinand abandon the logical “ПЪЛЕНЪ” (loaded) marking already present on the Bulgarian Lugers and substitute “ЗАРЯДЪ” meaning “a charge”? (I have always felt was a dumb thing to write on an extractor anyway, everybody else marks the extractor “loaded” in their respective languages)

The enigma of a Bulgarian marking on a Russian Luger may very likely end up to be as “norme” has postulated. The Bulgarian frames very well could have been leftovers in anticipation of additional sales. DWM is notorious for not throwing anything away, to wit, the Swiss and Brazilian “proofed” barrels found on some American Eagle Lugers. The end recipient, who still remains unknown, may have been satisfied with the approximate ‘bilingual’ safety marking if the price was right. That is a stretch I know, but not totally out of the realm of possibility.

So in summary, I find no compelling reason to proclaim the Russian Luger is now Bulgarian. I do not feel that this is an “ego” thing; I just believe that the preponderance of “evidence” favors a Russian connection. The evidence on either side of the argument is all circumstantial; there is no “smoking gun” (pardon the pun) that conclusively comes down on one side or the other. The collector community still needs to weigh what has been discussed and decide which camp to support. Unless and until something truly definitive is discovered, the controversy will live. But as for me…it’s Russian!

I thank you all for enduring this epistle, and I particularly thank Albert. He has provided much food for thought and intellectual stimulation. Let us choose up sides without acrimony!

Sincerely,
Ron Wood

[Pavlov]

Information provided by a Russian student who didn't speak Bulgarian. And its rendering by people who don't speak either language. What's the point of this exercise?

...regarding the two different extractor markings is why in the world would Tsar Ferdinand abandon the logical “ОГЪНЪ” (loaded) marking already present on the Bulgarian Lugers and substitute “ОГОНЬ” meaning “a charge”? (I have always felt was a dumb thing to write on an extractor anyway, everybody else marks the extractor “loaded” in their respective languages)

The extractor markings do not read ОГЪНЪ, they are ПЪЛЕНЪ and ЗАРЯДЪ respectively, both words being 100% Bulgarian as already illustrated in scans in this thread. The word ПЪЛЕНЪ means "full, loaded", the word ЗАРЯДЪ means "[a] charge". The marking ОГЪНЪ is Bulgarian and is on the safety. I will not attempt to guess why these words were chosen, that's pointless. I am only stating the fact that the words are Bulgarian, all of them - ОГЪНЪ, ЗАРЯДЪ and ПЪЛЕНЪ.

Truly enigmatic, indeed - Bulgarian text on a Russian gun. Unless one sees it as Bulgarian text on a Bulgarian gun. Too simple though, no enigma.