Jan C. Still Lugerforums banner

Deaths Head Luger 08

22K views 89 replies 21 participants last post by  RyanE 
#1 ·
First, to start with: I am not much of a handgun collector (I only have around 25 M1911(A1) pistols of various manufacturers, several Liberator pistols and maybe 20-30 other revolvers and pistols) and never bothered that much on Luger pistols since the few I have are more or less ones that I ran into. My main interest are sniper rifles of all nations, the US rifles starting 1903, plus I do have quite some German WWII rifles with a greater focus on K98k rifles (plus a bunch of items which I ran into and mainly bought because they are rare and/or of special interest to me for technical or historical reasons).

Recently I stumbled across a Luger pistol which caught my interest for being marked with a Deaths Head. It was priced in a region of a normal wartime Luger as well as from initial comparisons with other Deaths Head stamps it appeared nothing recently applied, so I thought I would not risk much in buying it.

As I had mentioned above, my background is much based on what is known and common in the world of K98k rifle collectors. With the K98k rifle there had been great research and documentation on SS production/usage already been done. The probably best and most recent research on these rifles was published by Michael Steves and Bruce Karem in their three volumes (of four books total) "Vol. 1 - Karabiner 98k", "Vol 2 - Karabiner 98k I" and "Vol 2 - Karabiner 98k II", as well as "Kriegsmodell". To summarize it in very few words, the SS rifle production can be split between the early years where they did not have access to newly manufactured parts/guns and had to re-use and "produce" their own weapons, based on old guns which were on stock, and the later production where they were "officially accepted" (Hitler ordered that the SS divisions to be armed according to the Army table of equipment and organization on 10th January 1942) had great access especially to the production at Steyr and Brünn from which they were delivered newly made parts to produce guns themselves. I'm now referring not to the later production rifles with newly made parts, but to the early conversions that were outcarried.

Many Gewehr 98 as well as even Kar98a (small ring action rifles!) were converted to K98k rifles by the SS. All of these conversions have in common that after the barrel shortening they were (again) and this time commercially proofed on the underside of the barrel shank what was and still is a requirement per the German proof laws, as well as that the original receiver markings were scrubbed and the barrel shanks were stamped with various Deaths Head configurations. The commercial proofs on the underside of the barrel start from mid to late 1936. There are variants of the Deaths Head stamps on the barrel shank which not only differ by the "item" above the Deaths Head (could be a +, a "lazy S", gullwing, SS, SS2, 01 or even a =), some even carry more than one Deaths Head stamps. However, there are patterns that these guns follow, like for example all known SS K98k Sniper rifles based on these Gew98 to K98k conversions carry the SS2 marked Deaths Head, plus particular Deaths Heads appearing in certain periods or with certain proof dates. There is an excellent writeup with timeline from one of the book authors published in their forum in a thread: http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread.php?35803-Lets-talk-SS-Deaths-Heads .

To get back to the Deaths Head marked Luger pistols: from researching on this forum and other sources it appears that one stronger believe in the Luger collecting community is that Deaths Head marked Luger pistols are associated with the WWI period, since many of the guns that had turned up appear with certain manufacturers/years. From what I was able to understand there however has not been any research or particular comparison with these pistols to K98k rifles from the SS been done, and seen what could vice versa be applied. I truly admit that the amount of Luger 08 pistols with Deaths Head that turn up are extremely limited compared to the number of K98k rifles with Deaths Head what makes serial studies tougher, but at least these pistols should not only be compared with other Luger 08 pistols, but also SS K98k rifles.

Based on all the above thoughts I therefore looked at the pistol that I have acquired in greater detail and compared it with the Gew98 to K98k rifle conversions. The pistol has scrubbed manufacturer and year markings, the barrel is not serialized and obviously a replacement barrel, as well as the pistol features commercial firing proofs. The Deaths Head stamp was applied where originally the manufacturing year would had been applied and is the Deaths Head with the "Lazy S". I then compared the Deaths Head stamp on the pistol to SS conversion rifles with the same Deaths Head stamp, both by size and form. The result was that the size is identical, and as good as it can be told it appeared also the shape (the stamp jumped when applied to the pistol, making it a partially double struck stamp, as well as it seemed the stamp was flat whereas the pistol in this area is beveled resulting in a not fully applied stamp). Next I compared the shape of the commercial firing proofs, and this time I included a commercially manufactured DWM 1920 Luger pistol that I own. The result was quite astonishing in that both the crown on the 1920 Luger is different (more narrow) than the crown on the SS Gew98 to K98k conversion, which is identical to the Deaths Head on my Luger pistol. The same applies to the letter N below the crown which is of a different font on the 1920 Luger, whereas once again it is identical on the SS Gew98 to K98k conversions and the Luger pistol of mine.

One could now argue that anyone with access to a SS Gew98 to K98k conversion could get identical stamps being made, but reproducing a firing proof stamp would be considered as falsification of documents since these are protected governmental insignia and you'd get a lot of years in prison for simply owning a stamp like this here in Europe. So I would outrule that. I also do not think anyone here would question the applied proof stamps. The pistol is all matching numbers. Several numbers have been newly applied with an identical font stamp which is also to be found with SS conversions of Gew98 to K98k. The only mismatching part is found on the inside and according to US websites named "Hold-Open Latch with Spring". This part also carries an Imperial German proof stamp.

There is no documentation on the SS having reworked pistols. On the other hand, there is also no reason why they should not have reworked pistols. There are Luger holsters which are documented with pictures to have been Deaths Head stamped and carried by SS, so the SS must have had Luger pistols in a time frame where they did not have access to newly manufactured Luger pistols, so they must had used pistols from old stock.

I would kindly ask for opinions to this pistol, knowing the discussion will be controversial. My goal was to also share as much information as possible that lead to various thoughts not to get approvals by members here, but to give a broad basis for a detailed discussion and to allow why I think in particular ways and I'm really keen to hear from Luger experts what they think and why they think this way. I am not trying to get an approval from experts here, but to hopefully close a link between the research on the K98k rifles and the Luger pistols for benefit of all collectors.
 

Attachments

See less See more
10
#2 ·
A firing proof stamp from 70-80 years ago could put someone in jail? Ok, then you are going on the basis that ALL of these are not fakes?
I know, I have dealt with some K98 folks and they are very defensive of being right when it comes to Simson markings and deaths head markings.

From your long disertation, it appears that you already have your mind made up...

I will say that many K98 folks say that the deaths head marking is correct and accurate. Most luger people will say that ANY WW2 deaths head are faked.

So, as they say - convince me WHY they are real please.
 
#3 ·
I agree with Ed about the WWII death's head being faked. However, it is my opinion that there are some legitimate WWI Lugers with a death's head. Marking a Luger to a unit was common in WWI, and it is entirely possible that a unit such as the 17th Hussar could have marked their Lugers with the Totenkopf...Bill
 
#4 ·
My position is that of a historian that has worked with original documentation and a team of researchers.

Sorry, but without contract documentation I consider it an added "decoration", most likely done post war to increase value or interest in those focused on the RHSA.

The WW-I markings were, obviously, entirely unrelated to a Nazi era organization.
 
#6 ·
A commercial DWM luger of 1920 will have a different crown N, as it was proved by a different proof house(Spandau) than the luger you show in the post.
Your newly acquired luger carries the crown N of the Suhl proof house.

" but reproducing a firing proof stamp would be considered as falsification of documents since these are protected governmental insignia and you'd get a lot of years in prison for simply owning a stamp like this here in Europe. So I would outrule that." Really? Then the current manufacturers and sellers of fake/reproduction German stamps of all types would be in jail in Poland. They offer these brazen modern fake stamps online and have for years- maybe they just don't sell them in Europe. :rolleyes:

My considered opinion on the posted luger is that it is quite similar to those found here in the US, one of which I have owned and posted here.
I considered mine to be a "fake", and think the same of this one; but, there is always a chance, however small, that they could be real- or that "real" DH lugers do exist.
I have no doubt that WWII K98 rifles exist with various DH markings.

JMHO.
:cool:
 
  • Like
Reactions: Snoodoubts
#7 ·
I have a theory about these Death's head Lugers. The majority of the ones I've seen, that I thought were legitimate, have these things in common. 1) They all appear to be surplus WW1 pistols or very early 1920 manufacture. 2)The Death's head is always looking "LEFT".
There was an organization started, in Germany in 1919, known as the "Organization Consul" It's mission was, among other things, to assassinate Left wing politicians. In a four year period, it assassinated over 350 people. It's credo was, they wanted men that would obey unconditionally and had no scruples. Their mission statement also said, to maintain arms and act under a military type structure.
These surplus Lugers would have been readily available and cheap. They may have been marked with the Death's head as a way of identifying other members of the hit squads, to each other.
I'm sure there are no documents or bills as proof. This is the type of organization that would not leave a paper trial. Proof might be found in some obscure diary,but I doubt it. These are the type of men that don't leave a paper trail, either.
Pat
 
#9 ·
Edward, had I had made up my mind already, I would not had posted on this forum. In that case I would had been satisified with what I stated here and be proud of it. During research I found a lot of controversial discussions, so I shared what I had found and how I got to which assumptions. As a book author and administrator of this forum you should know how to participate in a discussion and not throw arguments such as "you have already made up your mind".

You asked to be convinced of the Gew98 to K98k conversion rifles. Original documents on the SS are very rare. But fortunately many original pictures exist, showing these rifles in usage. I have referred you to various books which contain period pictures that clearly show conversions of Gewehr 98 to K98k and SS soldiers carrying them. Additionally there are enough pictures of SS sniper rifles to be found as well, these pictures without any doubt show Ajack scopes, as well as we know that Ajack in a certain serial range marked all scopes with Deaths Heads under the turret and inscription "SS-Dienstglas". Some of these rifles are even still fully matching numbers, some even with the original scope carrying pouch which is also proofed with original period pictures and the rifles they are matched to are all Deaths Head marked on the barrel shank, and all of them have commercial Suhler firing proofs on bottom of the barrel shank. A friend of mine just recently pulled a rifle from a river when he was searching with a metal detector. Guess what, it had a Deaths Head stamp on the barrel shank.
May I therefore ask in opposite, do you really think that these rifles with Deaths Heads stamps on the barrel are a plot of K98k rifle collectors all over the world which scrub Gewehr 98 receivers, add deaths head stamps and fake commercial proofs on the root of barrels?

Secondly, to owning a proof stamp: this was a single and simple aspect of the whole story. This of course and obviously does not outrule any criminals from owning and applying such a stamp, but at least over here it would get you into serious trouble already owning one of them. But in this context, thanks to 03man who identified my proof as being from Suhl - all of the proofs on the K98k rifles are from Suhl as well.

I would highly appreciate it if the Luger collectors could let me know what they think would had been in the Luger holsters that are shown in period pictures to carry an oversized Deaths Head on the flap and why would the particularily outrule that the holster may had carried a Deaths Head but the pistol surely could not had carried one. Additionally I would kindly want to know why the pistol of mine carry commercial firing proof from Suhl from the pre 1942 period and no serial number on the barrel. To my understanding a military pistol would not had required commercial proofs. Or does anyone in here consider the proof stamps applied to my pistol as fake markings which were added at a much later point?
 
#10 ·
"I would highly appreciate it if the Luger collectors could let me know what they think would had been in the Luger holsters that are shown in period pictures to carry an oversized Deaths Head on the flap and why would the particularily outrule that the holster may had carried a Deaths Head but the pistol surely could not had carried one.

Additionally I would kindly want to know why the pistol of mine carry commercial firing proof from Suhl from the pre 1942 period and no serial number on the barrel. To my understanding a military pistol would not had required commercial proofs. Or does anyone in here consider the proof stamps applied to my pistol as fake markings which were added at a much later point?"

To the first point,
The DH on the holster indicates nothing about what is inside- could be a DH luger or a "plain" luger.
I'm not sure that anyone here has outruled that such a holster could not have a DH luger inside- if someone posted that notion, I missed it.

To the second point, the Suhl commercial proofing would indicate a pistol that no longer "belongs" to the military. Hundreds if not thousands of lugers were "re-worked" or maybe just re-proved and sold commercially after WWI and before WWII. Your barrel is a barrel produced by Simson, as a spare; then not used/installed as above until post WWI- this commercial use did not require barrel numbering.

To a third point,
I reiterate, there is no doubt that DH rifles exist from the Nazi era that are associated with the SS; however, DH rifles cannot be a justification for the existence of "SS DH lugers" without additional information or known provenance.

A fourth and to me more interesting point,
yours is the first DH luger reported to be found in Europe. All others have been "found" in the US; which in itself is somewhat difficult to explain.



 
#11 ·
Good morning all,


For me, in the 1930s, Lugers with skulls were assembled, with pieces dating from the imperial period but also with pieces of new manufacture.
I had already shown, a long time ago, on Napca's monthly review, the Automag, a Luger with a skull, owned by a resistance fighter who had recovered it during the German occupation, in France .
It consists of parts from the Erfurt arsenal and parts probably coming from Simson and housed in a holster.
I totally believe in its authenticity ...
Some pictures:
 
#12 ·
I'd like to offer a little proof for my theory.
1st) The "Organization Consul was created and had at it's core, men from the Freicorps unit, "Marinebrigade Ehrhardt.
2nd) This unit's sleeve insignia was a Viking ship, sails billowing, in an oval.
3rd) Here is a picture of an officer of that unit with the Viking sleeve insignia
4th) Below that insignia, on the same sleeve is the Death's head insignia again looking left.
I know that the "Lazy S" is not there. I don't believe this is a lazy S, but the symbol for infinity. The symbol infinity and the Death's Head representing, "Death forever to traitors".
This is circumstantial evidence, to be sure, but men have been hanged on just such evidence.
Pat
 

Attachments

#13 ·
03man, thank you for your reply. I fully agree with you that the simple fact a Deaths Head is on a holster does not mean the same symbol to be found on the pistol inside. It however does proof that SS members have had Lugers at a very early stage, at a stage of time where they were not allowed access to Army Luger pistols of current production. This would in my point of view indicate they had to have Lugers from (scrapped) old military production or of commercial origin.
I'm highly thankful for you clearly stating, now already two times in this thread, that for you there is no doubt on Deaths Head marked rifles from this period. From reading old threads of this forum I sometimes had the feeling that these rifles were largely neglected among Luger collectors. You however are fully correct in that the simple existance of these rifle are no justification for pistols with these markings. On the other hand I do not see any reason what would exclude the SS for having Luger pistols, especially since pictures indicate the usage of them already in very early stages:
1st Option: One possibility is that they purchased commercial Luger pistols. This would had been expensive and maybe not enough supply for what they required.
2nd Option: They got fully functional Luger pistols from the Army - what I consider impossible, because they were prohibited access to Army items.
3rd Option: Rework pistols themselves from whatever was at hand, especially guns with damages (like they did with the Gew98 to K98k conversions).

When considering the 3rd option as a possibility, wouldn't you agree that they would had done this in a similar fashion to the Gew98 to K98k conversions? IF they ever did this, I personally would expect them to be done exactly this way, because everything else would differ too much from what is documented and established for their rifles. This therefore not only includes the application of their Deaths Head stamp as a Depot marking, but especially the commercial re-proof of a gun at Suhl.

prairiedogpat, regarding your point #4 or in particular the "Lazy S". Deaths Heads with this "Lazy S" are highly common on Gew98 to K98k reworks. They are to be found in a very certain time frame on rifles reworked by the SS. Not referring to my own pistol, but it would be tough for me to imagine that a particular stamp that is believed to have been used in a very particular time frame in WWI (not based on documentation, but simple by the fact that members of a certain unit had Deaths Heads as symbols on their uniforms) on only a very handful of pistols and not at all on rifles the same units have used, then all of a sudden appear in much larger numbers than on the handful WWI Lugers again on Gew98 to K98k converted rifles which were outcarried by the SS, with additional variations of the identical Deaths head (regarding the symbol above the DH) as well being used by the SS. Wouldn't it on the opposite make more sense that the SS applied these stamps during the timeframe where they reworked old guns, especially if even dimensions and shape of the stamps are identical?
Since you also questioned the meaning of the "lazy S" and assumed it could mean infinity. One of the book authors of the K98k Vol. I to III using the nickname "mrfarb" on his own k98kforum.com mentioned one theory of which I'm quoting an excerpt, that of course should be taken only as a possibility at this point of time:
About the "Lazy S" skull on Gew.98 rifles. I just started a thread today about those. Nobody has documentation to prove anything, but the two main SS depots prior to 1940 were at Dachau (Munich) and Sachsenhausen (Oranienburg). The 2 most common skull markings seen are "Lazy S" and "Gull wing". My theory is the "Lazy S" is Sachsenhausen, which makes sense as it was the main SS depot, right outside of Berlin. The other "Gull Wing" skull marking looks like a flattened "M" - Munich perhaps? It makes total sense that the 2 main depots closely match those markings, but I fully admit my thoughts on that are a work in progress.
Source: http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread.php?35797-Ww1-Death-head-Luger&p=265783&viewfull=1#post265783

Edit: I thought I would also make a cross-reference that it was the same mrfarb who during his research came up with the Küpper-connection on the Kü-marked Luger pistols (see https://luger.gunboards.com/showthread.php?43824-K%FC-mystery-answer)
 
#14 ·
Dave,
I don't know where you got the idea or impression that luger "guys" doubt or questioned the fact that the SS had or used luger pistols.:confused:
That the SS had lugers has never been questioned to my knowledge in any thread or post.

Where the lugers came from is of little consequence, as Germany was "awash" in lugers both in hidden civilian, various Freikorp, and black stocks of the Reichswehr.
And the SS was quite few in numbers in the early days, and not so difficult to arm with pistols.IMO.
After all the much larger(for a long time) SA seemed to have no problem with arms, from pistols to machineguns; all of which would have been available to the SS after the significant
reduction in SA numbers in later years. Just another opinion.

Option 3, as you state, is of course a possibility; but again extending the theory of DH on rifles to "why not on pistols" is no "proof" at all.
If one assumes that the DH was applied in option 3 to the many lugers that were in SS hands; I would expect to find many more DH lugers(in Europe, and in US bring backs) not just the very few
we see today. I would also not expect to find the chamber DH only on WWI vintage lugers, but all dates and mfgs.

Further the size and chamber location is odd, for an acceptance or rework type marking-at least to me- I would expect to find a small DH, or lightning runes near the "normal" proof markings on a luger; which of course is not the case with the DH luger.

Much food for thought and speculation, but I in no way, but with respect for his opinion, subscribe to Pat's explanation of a single unit or of the Lazy S meaning Infinity.
If someone wanted to mean "infinity", they could just as easily use the commonly accepted "lazy 8" symbol. This same explanation of use applies equally to the mfarb theory as mentioned above,
If one wants to represent the "S" and "M" locations why not just use the letter? What is gained by some oddball "stretched M" or "Lazy S"- which by the way is really not an "S" at all. JMHO.
 
#15 ·
Thank you, Don.

My reasoning behind identifying the symbol in question as infinity rather than a "lazy S" is, these people were heavy into the ancients, the mystic and the occult. This lazy S was one of the first symbols to represent infinity. The core of the Marinebrigade progressed from the Organization Consul to the S.A.and then to the SS. All of these organization loved ancient symbolism.
Pat
 
#16 ·
The Death Head Luger is a recurring topic, and that is understandable given its mystique and enigmatic origin. I find the connection with the SS very tenuous at best…why adapt a “lazy S” instead of the more logical double S (Schutzstaffel) that is captured perfectly by the double lightning bolt runes (please note that the holster shown by “Kri 1942” has a Death Head with the lightning bolt SS runes, not a “lazy S”!). The notion of an SS connection is further discouraged by the fact that the DH Lugers all bear WWI dates, the latest being 1918 a full 15 years before founding of the Waffen SS on 17 March 1933 (notably without any lazy S in the insignia!). But those who adhere to the SS connection are certainly entitled to their opinion.

My opinion (for what it is worth) places the creation of these Lugers in the Weimar Republic era following WWI. This was a tumultuous time with considerable disorganization and the rise of paramilitary units for defense. In particular I would like to offer the Meinenwerfer Heuschkel Freikorps as the possible progenitor of the DH Luger. Some time ago Klaus Mersbach kindly sent me the following information:

“Heuschkel, was a Lt. in the Posensches Pionier Bataillon Nr.29 and was promoted to Hauptmann by the end of WWI. After the armistice he formed the Minenwerfer-Detachment Heuschkel of the Freikorps. The detachment was composed of: Stab, 3 MW-Komps. (8 light M.W. and 4 heavy.M.G.), 1 M.G.K. and 1 Flamethrower platoon, 14 officers and 183 men.
Employment: Berlin.
Insignia: Death's Head on left upper sleeve.
Hauptmann Heuschkel was reassigned into the Weimar Reichswehr.
Source, Feldgrau (by Peter Wacker a dear friend of mine who just passed away recently) and Ehrenrangliste Vol.II.”

The flamethrower was the brainchild of Richard Fiedler, a 1900 mechanical engineer in Berlin. The potential of this weapon was recognized by Hauptmann Bernard Reddemann, formerly from Posen but subsequently accepted the position of “Fire Chief Dr. Reddemann” in Leipzig. Reddemann, as an engineer, soldier, and professional firefighter determined that the firefighting “steam pumper” could be modified to discharge flammable liquids as a flame thrower and coordinated with Fiedler in its development. Subsequently, Hauptmann Reddemann became commander of the 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] Company of the Pioneer Battalion No. 29 (the same battalion as Heusckel!). Flamethrowers were first used (unsuccessfully) in combat at Bagatelle-Pavillion in the Argonne on October 4, 1914. On October 10, 1914 Reddemann petitioned the High Command for the creation of a flamethrower unit. He was successful, and in WWI the men of the Garde Reserve Pioner Regiment, AKA the “Totenkopf Pionere” or “Deathshead Pioneers” included flamethrower units. (Source: German Flamethrower Pioneers of World War I, Thomas Wictor, 2007)

After cessation of the hostilities of WWI and formation of the Freikorps, Heuschkel created the paramilitary detachment “Minenwerfer Heuschkel” and he obviously retained his affinity for the Death Head as evidenced by the “MWH” sleeve insignia of his detachment (noted in the quotation by Mersbach above and not to be confused with the embroidered DH insignia on the cuff of the dress tunic of the Pioneer units). This sleeve badge is very rare and I am fortunate to own one.

The existence of flame thrower units during the Weimar era is documented in a well-known photo taken in Berlin during the Kapp Putsch of 13 March 1920.
It is not a great leap of logic to suggest that the Death Head symbol of the MWH sleeve badge was extended to the chamber marking of Lugers carried by Heuschkel’s troops of the flammenwerfer platoon with the addition of surmounting the “lazy S” to represent the pattern of a flamethrower while advancing on enemy positions.

I own a 1913 DWM Luger with the “Lazy S Death Head” chamber marking that I purchased in 1970 from a plumber in New Jersey. At that time Death Head Lugers were a little-known variant, and the chamber marking on my gun is identical to the marking illustrated by Fred Datig in his “The Luger Pistol”revised edition of 1958. This was long before the variant was common knowledge and subject to fakery. I also have an accompanying holster with the same marking. The holster is a Weimar era conversion of the original WWI army holster made by Otto Sindel in 1916 Berlin. The holster has been modified to add a provision for a cleaning rod and is marked with a Weimar type unit designation “5./A.R.2.15.”, which I think represents the “Fifth Artillery Battalion, Second Battery, weapon number 15”. Just as the original 1916 Army holster was “repurposed” for a Weimar unit use, I suspect it was also subsequently subsumed by the Death Head unit.

So, while totally devoid of corroborating documentation (as are all other guesses concerning this Luger variant) it is my theory that it is a Weimar Freikorps Flammenwerfer issue…and I am sticking to it! :)
Ron
 

Attachments

#20 ·
Ron,
Great write up on the possible Weimar connection; which I like since I agree with it. :)

I suspect those flaming bombs are meant for US arms, not lugers; in addition to the "bomb" you mention not being a "bomb", the ones shown are much too large. JMHO.
 
#21 ·
Took me some time to finally get hold of it, but for Luger collectors as a reference attached pictures of a 98a to K98k conversion that was outcarried by the SS (Edit: this rifle is a bolt mismatch. So everything is original matching numbers aside of the bolt). Part of this conversion was to scrub the original manufacturer markings and acceptance proofs, update the stock to K98k configuration (sling cutout, takedown disc, etc.; when Gew98 were converted to K98k configuration this also meant plugging the cutout for the rear sling swivel in the stock) and when all was finished, commercially proof the rifle at Suhl. For this rifle the commercial proof has the date 6 38, so June 1938. Additionally these rifles were stamped with the SS Deaths Heads in two places: on the pistol grip area, as well as on the barrel shank. These conversions were outcarried by different SS arsenals, some even have more than one Deaths Head markings meaning it went to an arsenal twice (Gew98 to K98k conversion, later then conversion of the straight bolt handle to swept down configuration, etc.).
I want to point out that ALL 98a to K98k configurations by the SS that I am currently aware of carry ONLY the Deaths Head with the Lazy S atop. The 98a to K98k conversions are much rarer than Gew98 to K98k conversions. It is therefore my believe that the lower number as well as the different work required for conversion might had been a reason that only the SS arsenal using the Lazy S Deaths Head outcarried conversions of this very particular type.

To the entries in the meantime: Ron Wood, it would be highly appreciated if you could upload the pictures of yours in a higher resolution since they are pixelated what makes comparison very tough. Additionally I'd want to inform you that as above mentioned there are different Deaths Head stamps the SS were using on rifles converted to K98k configuration, depending on the time and the arsenal which used them. They were re-designated over the years, and there were different ones. The Lazy S Deaths Head marked rifles are to be found up to 1938 proof dated rifles only.
 

Attachments

#22 ·
Dave,
How do you know that the SS carried out the conversion?
Is there documentation? or just the fact that it has a "death's head" that is assumed to mean SS.

The presence of commercial proofing is more than a little strange; I still cannot accept the SS as being so "law abiding" as to use a civilian proof house.
Or if they did, then the DH becomes redundant as a "proof" and perhaps falls into the "acceptance" or ownership category?

I'm not sure this example in any way makes the use of the DH/lazy S clearer; only more confused to me.:confused:
 
#23 ·
Hello 03man, there are hundreds of these conversions to be found, all of them carry Deaths Head acceptance stamps. And there are enough pictures that show these rifles in the hands of SS. They are highly distinctive, even from bad pictures, since the rifles have a finger groove plus cannot be confused with Standard Modell rifles due to the barrel band configuration they are in.
Depending on the arsenal who outcarried the conversion and on the time when this was done you find the Deaths Heads with different insignias above the DH. I would recommend you to buy books covering this topic. For example these currently cover this topic the best: https://www.thirdpartypress.com/category-s/1632.htm (I'd in particular recommend Vol. 1 which has details on early rifles - what the SS conversions were).
The SS even adopted sniper rifles based on these K98k conversions. The mount they used for these rifles was the so-called "Short Side Rail", which was later also adopted by the Army. The very first SS sniper rifles had Hensoldt Dialytan 4x scopes within a very particular serial range, most of the scopes also had SS Runes and Deaths Heads engraved on the scope. The Hensoldt Dialytan scope however soon was replaced by the Ajack 4x90 scope, which proofed to be one of the best scopes Germans had and which was used for German sniper rifles up until 1945 in all kinds of mounts. The Ajack scopes for the SS were at the very beginning normal serial production scopes (34.XXX serial range), but up until 41.XXX serial range the designation on the scope turret was at factory engraved with a Deaths Head, followed by "SS-Dienstglas". If you don't want to buy books you can also see this website here for some pictorial reference (start reading where it says "History of the SS Short Side Rail"): https://www.wwiigermansniper.com/short-side-rail .
I have five more rifles which were converted to K98k by the SS and carry Deaths Head stamps on the barrel shank. Three of them are sniper rifles, two are normal service rifles. You can however find these guns also in the US. Even with the Russian captured rifles many came back which still carry the SS Deaths Head stamps on the barrel shank. All of these have in common that they have a commercial proof on bottom of the barrel.

As a result to this, most of my assumptions that I tried to get feedback on here are based on the simple fact that with rifles these conversions are known and proofed by pictures, as well as the quantity, amount and origin these rifles come from. I do NOT have any proof on the SS doing the same on P.08 pistols. My simple approach was that IF the SS also has had pistols they MAYBE WOULD had done the same for pistols. Repair/rework what they could get, proof them commercially in Suhl and mark them with the same stamps they use for the rifles since these are the official proof stamps from the particular arsenal, as well as it would not had made any sense to use a different stamp for pistols (maybe in size, but not in shape).
 
#24 ·
I would look at the route these rifles followed before jumping to conclusions.

Before the SS, there was the SA, which in turn was based on Freikorps units before that. So basically the DH could have been applied anywhere between 1918 and 1938, if real. And anywhere between 1918 and yesterday if fake.

The SS were pretty proud of their logo. Why bother with a poorly executed one like the DH, which looks like an amateur designed it?

If this DH marking has any legitemacy, the most logical reason for its existance is a post WW1 Freikorps marking. And it would not be impossible for rifles with these markings to travel along with their owners through Freikorps, SA and SS ownership.

But we must take into account that we know many P08s were marked AFTER the war and cannot assume that 98s did not get the same treatment.
 
#25 ·
Thanks Dave.
I just can't make the leap of faith that because the SS carried a particular type of rifle, that the revision was done specifically by or for them.
Vilm makes a couple good points.

The civilian proofs are another stumbling block to me.
If the SS was not a part of the military- but organized and large enough to have their own rework facilities- they would have no reason to
submit to the "extra" time and cost(yes, proofing cost some money) as they were a "law" or organization unto themselves.
If a sanctioned part of the military, then civilian proofing would not have been required at all.

I would even suggest that these conversions were done commercially, as were so many lugers, between the war- and then purchased by
the SS or some other unit/organization that used the lazy S/DH marking, and some percentage were so marked to show ownership.

Of course the SS had pistols, but the large numbers of pistols extant that could have been or were SS used, do not show up with DH markings-
so perhaps we can deduce that not all SS used pistols were marked ? If not, why not- marking their rifles seems to have been a requirement or at least rifles were
largely or often or mostly marked, or is this incorrect?

One would think that if helmets were marked with the lighting bolts, that something as important as a rifle or pistol (100% of them) would be similarly marked?

Another explanation for the presence of the very few DH lugers(compared with the number of rifles you mention) is that some nefarious folks noticed the presence of "SS-DH" rifles and decided to produce a rare variety of luger with the same DH. But as you say no evidence; other than anecdotal stories of the production of the DH lugers in post war Germany for sale to unsuspecting collectors. Observation of a number of pictures of lugers with the DH on the chamber, show "disturbances" in the finish around the DH, but not so for the rifle pictures you have shown- admittedly this is a very small sample- but perhaps suggestive.

I really like books and have shelves full of them, but I'm reluctant to buy those regarding the SS rifles- why?- because if I do I know I will want one and one will grow to "too" many. It is a defect in my brain- one is not enough. So I'll stay away from them completely.

I've taken the same stance on Mauser made lugers also, I don't collect them. Well- except for a police marked Banner; and a shooter or two.:cool:
 
#26 ·
Vlim, I might need to precise my statements: ALL K98k rifles with Deaths Head stamps that are known carry the identical Commerial firing proof from Suhl dating from approx. 1936 to 1940. Additionally ALL of these rifles are either Gew98 to K98k or 98a to K98k conversions - plus ALL of them have the original manufacturer scrubbed. Additionally original period pictures proof that SS have carried these rifles, as well as there are no pictures of Army soldiers carrying these rifles. I therefore see absolutely no other possibility than to assume these guns were converted by the SS and these guns were made up by the SS and the SS applied the Deaths Head stamp. Additionally think of the sniper rifles they had - they are Deaths Head marked too, plus the production of them falls right into the same period where the guns with Deaths Head appears.
I fully agree with you that many people tried to enhace their gun values by application of stamps which don't belong on the guns. But based on what is known and what I had mentioned above - the combination of commercial proofs and even within certain periods of proof dates only certain variants of Deaths Heads to be found on particular guns it is absolutely impossible that hundreds of collectors all over the world made a secret agreement on what stamp to apply on which gun combination and keep the stamps among themselves, plus these guns still sometimes turn up from attics (and I would guess you agree that when Russia sold the German captured K98k rifles they didn't bother on application fo stamps and became part of any secret Deaths Head stamping group).

03man, you might know on European proof laws. Any modification done to a rifle results in the requirement of another proof. The only ones outside this law were the Army. Therefore the SS also had to re-proof their guns. Second, most of your points are answered in the book I recommended. This is NOT a book on the SS rifles specifically, but a rifle on the K98k rifle up to 1940 with a chapter on SS rifles as well. So you are not buying a book on SS rifles. As a collector I buy books on guns that I don't even want to have nor have much interest in. But they are great reference if you ever need to look something up, plus they allow to maybe cross-connect information. Plus they are most often a better investment than the guns since they always happen to get out of print and then prices explode. I can guarantee you, the money you pay for this book is worth every penny.
Second, the SS runes were established at a later point. You can first find them on the Ajack SS Dienstglas scopes which date around 1940. This is also the first time you will find Deaths Head stamps on barrel shanks with the SS runes above them. Later when the SS was allowed to place contracts for rifles many of them got marked not with the double runes, but in fact were stamped with a Single Rune. In fact the only K98k rifles with Double SS Runes you are able to find are either the ones with the Deaths Head and the SS runes above them, or those reworked or accepted by the later SS ZentralZeugamt 2 or 4.
 
#27 ·
Thanks for enhancing my point.

Your assumption is that the DH was applied during the late 1930s rework. The fact that the DH on the rifles is blued over supports the idea they were already there.

My assumption is that these rifles came from Freikorps/SA storage and already had the DH marking before the SS or some subcontractor did their thing.

I think it is impossible to prove that the DH were not present on those rifles before the 1930s rework you mentioned.

Which brings me back to my original point: they could have been applied at anytime after 1918.
 
#28 ·
Hello Vlim, no this can be pretty easily be outruled. Some of the Deaths Head stamped rifles have barrels from companies such as Erma with manufacturing date from the barrel manufacturer the same period. How could a barrel date 1940 be stamped with a stamp from 1930s rework on a rifle?
The rifle above was just one sample. As I had said, I have five more in my own collection. This is just the only one which features the Deaths Head with the „Lazy S“ above it.
 
#29 ·
Interesting.

But barrels also have a long shelve life. We know, for example, that Mauser never made artillery luger barrels between 1930 and 1947. All artilleries Mauser made in that time frame were built around WW1 era DWM barrels.

Other suppliers may have resold surplus bits they had lying around for many, many years when the SS was looking for bits 'n pieces.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top