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Thread: K-Date DATA REQUEST

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    Default K-Date DATA REQUEST

    To all collectors that own one or more Mauser K-date Luger(s).

    Upon request of a growing number of Luger collectors I started this survey of the Mauser K-date German Military accepted Lugers, in order to obtain a further insight of the various sub variations within this intriguing group of Lugers.

    General information:
    Mauser obtained during 1934 a contract for the delivery of the P.08 Luger Pistol to the German Military Forces. This contract was established for eight years – ending October 1942. During 1934 and 1935 the Treaty of Versailles was secretly violated by stamping the chamber with a code ‘K’ for 1934, and a ‘G’ for 1935. As from 1936 the German authorities felt strong enough to quit this concealed marking, and from that moment the year of production was stamped upon the chamber.

    Only about 10,930 K-date Lugers have been produced during the last months of 1934. During this short period Mauser used various methods of markings and proofing. In the beginning all parts bore scriptic ‘S’ inspection stamps, these changed step by step to a gothic ‘S’, and then gradually disappeared. The last 1,830 Lugers within the K-dates series are reported not to have any inspection stamps on parts.
    In his ‘Third Reich Lugers’ on page 15 Jan C. Still has classified four sub variations, based on the appearance and the style of the inspection stamps, and the style of the ‘S’ in the S/42 code.

    About 300 K-date pistols were reportedly procured by the German Navy, these bear an Eagle/M and an O (or N?) property number. Jan C. Still has classified these as the ‘Navy Variation’.

    All pistols obtained the rust blue finish, strawed small parts, interior surfaces were polished bright after bluing.

    The aim of this Survey.
    Apart from the above described various inspection stamps, the pistols of the K-date series have also some other specific variations in their appearances.

    1. - All have the thickened or ‘long’ rear frame, but in some cases the so called ‘Mauser Bump’ is found. (See below for pictures). It is interesting to find out if there is a pattern throughout the S/N’s.

    2. - All barrels have a length of 4 Inches, and have also a sharp edged barrel band. In some cases however, this barrel band is longer, and the front sight is set back to match the rear side of the longer barrel band. (See below for pictures). Here also it is interesting to see if this was done at random, or that a pattern can be found.

    3. - The Army Acceptance stamps on the left front side of the receiver are reportedly variations of the following: Ö|37, B|90, and S|91 (S|92?). The (mixed) use of these stamps has not yet been matched to the S/N’s.

    4. - The bodies of the magazines are known to be made of nickel plated crimped sheet metal, the bottom is slant cut with an aluminum base secured by a pin through the rear of the base and the tube. Reportedly the early issued magazines had a marking on the spine of the body, near to the bottom. Also it is interesting to find out at what moment the proof marks on the bottoms changed from Ö|37 to B|90, and to S|91.

    5. - The Navy issued pistols can be recognized by two markings: an engraved eagle above a letter ‘M’, and a property number after an ‘O’ or a ‘N’. When Sam Costanzo wrote his book, he reported six different styles of eagle/M engravings for the K-date series. (See below for pictures). It is interesting to find out if all these are still around 29 years later... Also the place on the pistol where these markings can be found is not yet fully known.

    6. – Reportedly there were no official Police issued K-date Lugers. As we know now, the Police forces procured occasionally Army issued pistols at a later moment. It is interesting to find out if there are any K-dates around with a sear safety.

    7. - Most K-dates have a indention, on both sides of the receiver, close at the spot where the barrel screws in. (See picture below).


    Some pictures to help you determine the properties of your K-date

    1a. - The rear frame - reinforced without 'hump'

    Download Attachment: [img]images/icon_paperclip.gif[/img] MauserLongFrame.jpg
    26.2*KB
    1b. - The rear frame - reinforced with the 'hump'

    Download Attachment: [img]images/icon_paperclip.gif[/img] MauserBump.jpg
    27.68*KB

    2a. - The sharp edged short barrel band

    Download Attachment: [img]images/icon_paperclip.gif[/img] MauserSharpShort.jpg
    12.79*KB

    2b. - The sharp edged long barrel band

    Download Attachment: [img]images/icon_paperclip.gif[/img] MauserSharpLong.jpg
    14.43*KB

    5. - Costanzo's Navy Eagles/M # 134-139

    Download Attachment: [img]images/icon_paperclip.gif[/img] CostanzoProofs.jpg
    26.27*KB

    7. - The indention on the receiver at the barrel end

    Download Attachment: [img]images/icon_paperclip.gif[/img] kdate8.jpg
    33.78*KB

    We need a lot of information. So let’s make it easy to respond!
    There a six questions. (For a Navy issued K-date there are nine). It is a long list, but I tried to set it up in a multiple choice pattern. You can present your K-date(S) properties in a fairly shorthand manner. This is an example:

    1.SN 675a - 2.S91-S91 - 3.d - 4.b - 5.b - 6.675a/675a, spine 'H'- 7.d - 8.d - 9.O.1215

    It might come handy if you select and print the list. You can take it with you to the pistol(s) and fill in what you find at ease. It surely helps to avoid mistakes in the shorthand string…

    Of course, if you find something that is not listed as a possibility, please give as much details as possible to make me understand what you have there. I might even ask for a picture…

    As soon as we have gathered enough data to establish a table with S/N’s and properties I will publish it here.

    This survey is beneficial for all Luger Collectors. I greatly appreciate your help to get the K-date Lugers ‘under control’. You might send your data in this thread, or mail them directly to me thru the forum’s mail service.

    Thank you for joining this survey!

    Joop

    Here is the list of data wanted:
    ------------------------------------------------------
    1. SN# (+ suffix if any)

    2. Army Acceptance Stamps found (2)
    Any combination of Ö|37 - B|90 - S|91 - S|92

    3. S - configuration: (with thanks to Jan Still's TRL)
    a. Scriptic S on all parts, including the ‘S’ in the S/42 code
    b. Mixed scriptic and gothic S on all parts with a scriptic S in the S/42 code
    c. Gothic S on all parts, a scriptic S in the S/42 code
    d. Without S inspection on all parts, gothic S in S/42 code
    e. Another mixture (please specify)

    4. Barrel band
    a. Sharp short barrel band, sight is close to the muzzle
    b. Sharp long barrel band, sight is placed backward from the muzzle
    c. Other (please specify)

    5. Frame
    a. with thickened rear, without 'hump'
    b. with thickened rear only on top, 'hump'
    c. other (please specify)

    6. Magazine(s)
    If you have K-date proofed (Ö|37-B|90) magazine(s) please specify the SN#(s), the proof(s) and anything stamped on the body (spine).

    Only if it concerns a Navy issued K-date please give also the next 3 items:
    7. Navy proof Eagle
    a. Costanzo Nr 134
    b. Costanzo Nr 135
    c. Costanzo Nr 136
    d. Costanzo Nr 137
    e. Costanzo Nr 138
    f. Costanzo Nr 139

    8. Place of Navy eagle
    a. Left barrel
    b. Left receiver
    c. Left frame panel
    d. Rear grip strap
    e. Front grip strap
    f. other (please specify)

    9. Please specify the Navy property code, O # or N #
    This code should be stamped lengthwise on the front grip strap. If not so, please report.

    Note: If your K-date has a sear safety, please report also.
    Added 03/14/2006: Note: if your K-date has no indention on the receiver please report also.
    -----------------------------------------------------

    Data reported - updated 10/17/2009 - 71 pistols

    SN -630 Ö|37-Ö|37 3.a - 4.a - 5.b - 6.#647- Gothic S proof - 'H' on spine, front sight has Gothic S, (no indention)
    SN -802 Ö|37-Ö|37 3.a - 4.a - 5.b - 6.#925-Ö|37- 'H' on spine (indention not visible)
    SN -925 Ö|37-Ö|37 3.a - 4.a - 5.b - 6.#2531-Ö|37- Scriptic S proof - 'H' on spine (no indention)
    SN 1056 Ö|37-Ö|37 3.a - 4.a - 5.b - 6.#1056-Ö|37- Scriptic S proof - 'H' on spine (# not original)
    SN 1255 Ö|37-Ö|37 3.a - 4.a - 5.b - 6.#1255-Ö|37- Scriptic S proof - 'H' on spine
    SN 1323 Ö|37-Ö|37 3.b - 4.a - 5.b - 6.none (indention confirmed)
    SN 1633 Ö|37-Ö|37 3.* - 4.a - 5.b - 6.none *scriptic S on all parts except middle toggle link and RH receiver which are both marked with a gothic S
    SN 1661 Ö|37-Ö|37 3.a - 4.a - 5.b - 6.none
    SN 1709 Ö|37-Ö|37 3.a - 4.b - 5.b - 6.#1709-Ö|37 - 7.d - 8.c - 9. O.1801 (Indention?)
    SN 1919 Ö|37-Ö|37 3.b - 4.a - 5.b - 6.#1919-Ö|37 H on spine; has indention
    SN 2003 Ö|37-S|91 3.b - 4.a - 5.a - 6.#2003-Ö|37 - 7.d - 8.c - 9. O.1775 has indention
    SN 2021 Ö|37-Ö|37 3.? - 4.? - 5.? - 6.none - 7.d - 8.c - 9. O.1750 (indention? - refinished pistol)
    SN 2029 Ö|37-Ö|37 3.b - 4.a - 5.a - 6.none
    SN 2043 Ö|37-Ö|37 3.b - 4.a - 5.b - 6.none - 7.d - 8.c - 9. O.1987
    SN 2086 Ö|37-Ö|37 3.b - 4.a - 5.a - 6.none - 7.d - 8.c - 9. O.1741 (poor condition)
    SN 2140 Ö|37-Ö|37 3.b - 4.b - 5.b - 6.unknown- 7.d - 8.c - 9.unknown (pistol not authenticated)
    SN 2173 Ö|37-Ö|37 3.b - 4.b - 5.b - 6.none
    SN 2372 Ö|37-Ö|37 3.* - 4.b - 5.a - 6.#2067+(S)-Ö|37 - 7.d - 8.c - 9 O.2038 * Mixed S all parts, gothic S on toggle
    SN 2382 Ö|37-Ö|37 3.b - 4.b - 5.b - 6.none
    SN 2474 B|90-S|91 3.b - 4.b - 5.b - 6.#2474+S two matching, tool marked B|90, Indention confirmed
    SN 2510 Ö|37-Ö|37 3.b - 4.a - 5.b - 6 #2510-Ö|37 '+'
    SN 2516 Ö|37-Ö|37 3.b - 4.b - 5.b - 6.none
    SN 2539 Ö|37-Ö|37 3.b - 4.a - 5.a - 6.none X marked Russian capture, DDR magazine
    SN 2547 Ö|37-Ö|37 3.b - 4.b - 5.b - 6.#7353-B|90
    SN 2628 Ö|37-Ö|37 3.b - 4.b - 5.b - 6.none (renumbered B|90 proofed)
    SN 2712 Ö|37 Ö|37 3.b - 4.b - 5.a - 6.#2712 (replacement; 42, SE63)
    SN 2801 B|90-S|91 3.* - 4.b - 5.b - 6.none * Mixed S all parts, gothic S on toggle
    SN 3069 B|90-Ö|37 3.b - 4.b - 5.a - 6.#2538-Ö|37
    SN 3164 Ö|37-B|90 3.b - 4.b - 5.a - 6.none
    SN 3304 Ö|37-Ö|37 3.b - 4.b - 5.a - 6.none, Indention confirmed.
    SN 3412 Ö|37-B|90 3.b - 4.b.- 5.a - 6.none
    SN 3542 B|90-S|91 3.b - 4.b - 5.a - 6.#3642+ Ö|37(S) (barrel SN 3542 struck over 521 proofed Ö|37)
    SN 3771 B|90-S|91 3.b - 4.a - 5.b - 6.#1151 Ö|37(S) H on spine
    SN 3822 B|90-S|91 3.b - 4.b - 5.a - 6.?
    SN 3944 B|90-S|91 3.b - 4.b - 5.a - 6.none, Indention confirmed.
    SN 4222 B|90-S|91 3.b - 4.b - 5.a - 6.#4222+ B|90
    SN 4372 B|90-S|91 3.b - 4.b - 5.a - 6.#5805 + S|91, Indention confirmed.
    SN 4399 (details unknown - data pending)
    SN 4423 B|90-S|91 3.b - 4.a - 5.a - 6.2 matching, Indention confirmed
    SN 4408 B|90-S|91 3.b - 4.b - 5.a - 6.none
    SN 4429 B|90-S|91 3.b - 4.b - 5.a - 6.none, Indention confirmed.
    SN 4563 B|90-S|91 3.* - 4.b - 5.a - 6.none *Scriptic S all parts, gothic S on toggle
    SN 4638 B|90-S|91 3.c - 4.b - 5.b - 6.none
    SN 5078 B|90-S|91 3.d - 4.b - 5.a - 6. unkown (Gold plated, grips mother of pearl, take down lever not matching)
    SN 5342 Ö|37-Ö37 3.b - 4.a - 5.a - 6. 2 matching (Ö37) has sear safety (rig)
    SN 6101 B|90-S|91 3.b - 4.b - 5.a - 6.none
    SN 6162 no proofs 3.d - 4.b - 5.a - 6.none (for reference only = engraved with gilt small parts)
    SN 6406 B|90-S|91 3.c - 4.b - 5.b - 6.none
    SN 6380 B|90-S|91 3.c - 4.b - 5.b - 6.none
    SN 6769 B|90-S|91 3.e - 4.b - 5.b - 6.#6769 B|90
    SN 7026 B|90-S|91 3.* - 4.b - 5.a - 6.#752a+ B|90 *Gothic S all parts, no S in front of the S/42.
    SN 7104 B|90-S|91 3.c - 4.b - 5.b - 6.#7104-B|90
    SN 7763 B|90-S|91 3.c - 4.b - 5.a - 6.none, Indention confirmed
    SN 8021 B|90-S|91 3.c - 4.b - 5.a - 6.#8021-B|90, has indention
    SN 8023 B|90-S|91 3.* - 4.a - 5.a - 6.? * 3.c/3.d, gothic S on toggle
    SN 8049 B|90-S|91 3.* - 4.b - 5.a - 6.? * 3.c/3.d, scriptic S on toggle
    SN 8089 B|90-S|91 3.d - 4.a - 5.a - 6.none, has indention, no halo's around serial number digits.
    SN 8445 B|90-S|91 3.* - 4.a - 5.a - 6.#1901a-B|90 * some gothic + scriptic 'S' on parts
    SN 8724 B|90-S|91 3.d - 4.a - 5.b - 6.#8724-B|90
    SN 9276 B|90-S|91 3.d - 4.b - 5.b - 6.none (has #2022k)
    SN 9788 B|90-S|91 3.d - 4.a - 5.b - 6.none
    SN 9801 B|90-S|91 3.d - 4.b - 5.b - 6.none
    SN 9820 B|90-S|91 3.d - 4.b - 5.b - 6.none
    SN 9844 B|90-S|91 3.* - 4.a - 5.b - 6.#9844-(fxo) * Gothic S/42, scriptic S on parts
    SN 121a B|90-S|91 3.d - 4.a - 5.b - 6.none, Indention confirmed.
    SN 131a B|90-S|91 3.d - 4.a - 5.b - 6.none
    SN 331a B|90-S|91 3.d - 4.a - 5.a - 6.#3219-Ö|37, Scriptic S proof
    SN 322a B|90-S|91 3.d - 4.a - 5.a - 6.none
    SN 411a B|90-S|91 3.d - 4.a - 5.a - 6.none
    SN 650a B|90-S|91 3.d - 4.a - 5.b - 6.none
    SN 858a B|90-S|91 3.d - 4.a - 5.a - 6.#892a-B|90
    SN 1041a B|90-S|91 3.d- 4.a - 5.a - 6.unknown, indent confirmed('a' suffix looks like a 'Q')
    Last edited by Joop van de Kant; 10-17-2009 at 03:46 PM. Reason: K-date #2474 added
    Joop van de Kant, co - author of:
    "The Mauser Parabellum 1930-1946"
    Analysis of a Million Luger Pistols

  2. #2
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    Joop, Let me be the first to respond: "K" date #1: (1) 3069, (2) O/92 O/37, (3) b, (4) b, (5) a, (6) 2538, O/37, nothing on magazine spine; "K" date #2: (1) 8724, (2) B/90 S/91, (3) d, (4) a, (5) b, (6) 8724, B/90, nothing on magazine spine.
    drbuster

  3. #3
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    Joop
    Thanks for an outstanding K date research tool.
    1. Sn 1056; 2. Ö37 Ö37; 3. a; 4. a; 5. b; 6. Magazine: Ö37,1056 (sn not original), S, H on spine
    Jan
    Jan C Still
    Site Owner - Operator

  4. #4
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    Joop...... Thanks for taking on this project.......

    (1)#802, (2)0/37 0/37, (3)a,(4)a,(5)b, (6)2531 0/37 H on spine (7) no indent

    (1)#7763,(2) B/90 S/91,(3) c,(4)b,(5)a, no K mag (7) has indent


    PS....how about Winston's this Friday at about 7:00 p.m. ???
    dave

  5. #5
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    Herbert,
    Thank you for your quick reply! Please have a look at the acceptance stamps on K-date SN 3096 again. You report O/92 for the left most stamp, that is a unknown code...

    Jan,
    Thanks for your contribution.

    Dave,
    Also thanks - and yes; I would like to meet you again at Winston's
    Joop van de Kant, co - author of:
    "The Mauser Parabellum 1930-1946"
    Analysis of a Million Luger Pistols

  6. #6
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    Survey updated.

    Including my K-dates we have now nine pistols reported.
    Joop van de Kant, co - author of:
    "The Mauser Parabellum 1930-1946"
    Analysis of a Million Luger Pistols

  7. #7
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    Hi Joop, Here are a few more!!

    K-Date #1, 1) 1661, 2) Ö|37 Ö|37, 3) a, 4) a, 5) b
    K-Date #2, 1) 3412, 2) Ö|37 B|90, 3) b, 4) b, 5) a
    K-Date #3, 1) 6101, 2) B|90 S|91, 3) b, 4) b, 5) a
    K-Date #4, 1) 9820, 2) B|90 S|91, 3) d, 4) b, 5) b


  8. #8
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    Joop K date. 1) 6406 2) B90 S91 3)c 4) b 5) b 6 N/A. Bill

  9. #9
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    Joop, Must be S/92! Sorry it is lightly stamped.
    drbuster

  10. #10
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    Doc, I think a better guess would be B|90, or maybe another Ö|37. I don't think S|92 was used until the G-Date Production.

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