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Rare Bronnie .25 cal. pistol

10K views 38 replies 8 participants last post by  VAC 
#1 ·
Gents,
I'd very much appreciate any info on this little .25 pistol. No markings apart from the ones shown.
Thanks so much.



 
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4
#2 ·
You have gotta love this one.

It is a copy, most likely Spanish, of the FN Browning Model 1906 pistol.

Anthony

- - - Updated - - -

Mr. Bronnie was John M.'s jealous brother-in-law! :cool:
 
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#7 ·
Too me it is quite different than the Phoenix with external hammer, this looks like a modified striker fired FN copy.

Really made to deceive with fake company and patent names. Not just one but merging two company names:
Fabrique Nationale d'Armes de Guerre
Fabrique d'Armes de Grande Precision

Even FN QC marking is copied, which tells me that this is a 1920s or 1930s copy and not earlier.

Anthony
 
#8 ·
Anthony,
I think it's pointless to blame manufacturers who tried to improve sales with the Browning brand and Liege markings .
And I'm in this case to draw attention to the similarity of mechanisms .
And this mechanics of the Bronnie pistol pistol is more similar to the mechanics of the Phoenix pistol which at the beginning of production had the Liege proof .
In General, this mechanics is more common in Spanish pistols .


I wonder whose patent was used to produce this pistol ?
I think they used Henry Rosier patent .


Vaclav
 
#9 ·
I think you mean to say that they stole Henry Rosier's patent and tried to pass it off as a genuine Browning...

Stealing patents and misleading buyers is indeed a way to improve sales, not the ethical or legal way however.
 
#13 ·
Of course, Anthony, it is possible that this was the case .
I understand that you are annoyed by manufacturers who were engaged in fakes and copies of Browning pistols .
Have you ever seen the results of pistol manufacturers who brazenly used the patent of Louis Robar?:)
 
#10 ·
Fascinating! I actually thought the Chinese were the ones who did this mostly, trying to pass off a fake with close resembling letters etc. They were known to do it with Mausers especially. I must admit the craftsman shiop is better than the Chinese copies. neat little gun I like it.
 
#14 ·
From what I have read, Spain was like the Wild West when it came to enforcing patents or copyright laws. I think all (European) manufacturers tried and failed in Spanish courts... still the same in India today.

- - - Updated - - -

Many Spanish pistols of that time can be considered rare .
And these guns are rare probably because collectors did not try to save them and did not attach much importance to these pistols .
You correctly noticed that in the book of A.B. Zhuk this pistol is not among the mass of other Spanish pistols that look like a Browning, but I have seen such a gun before .
By the way, the Phoenix pistol was also considered to be of Spanish production, but this is not the case .


Does anyone have at least one Phoenix pistol?
I'm also interested in any old ads with Phoenix pistols.
Has anyone seen it in the old catalogues ?

Vaclav
Sorry I do not think I have any Phoenix info... sure these can all be interesting and collectible variants. I knew a collector that collected only 6.35mm pistols, and the fun part was that there was always something else that would pop up, many undocumented from Spain.

Anthony
 
#11 ·
In his book "The Illustrated Encyclopedia of Handguns" (pp. 257-265), A.B. Zhuk has listed (and partially illustrated) up to 186 imitations of FN Browning 1906. Interestingly, the "Bronnie" does not appear in the listing: not sure this no-mention would make subject pistol a "rare" specimen ...
 
#12 ·
Many Spanish pistols of that time can be considered rare .
And these guns are rare probably because collectors did not try to save them and did not attach much importance to these pistols .
You correctly noticed that in the book of A.B. Zhuk this pistol is not among the mass of other Spanish pistols that look like a Browning, but I have seen such a gun before .
By the way, the Phoenix pistol was also considered to be of Spanish production, but this is not the case .


Does anyone have at least one Phoenix pistol?
I'm also interested in any old ads with Phoenix pistols.
Has anyone seen it in the old catalogues ?

Vaclav
 
#15 ·
Gents,
I'd very much appreciate any info on this little .25 pistol. No markings apart from the ones shown.
Thanks so much.
View attachment 626487
View attachment 626489
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Alvaro ,
What do you know about the manufacturer of this pistol ?
There is a large list of Spanish gunsmiths and to which manufacturer does the authorship of this pistol belong ?


Acha y Cia, Eibar … "Acha"
AH and AR: Acha Hermanos, Eibar or Ermunda ... "Looking Glass", sometimes the trade name was not used *Pistols marked "Looking Glass" seem to be post-WWI made*
Domingo Acha, Eibar ... "Triplex"
Aguirre y Cia, Eibar ... "Basculant", "Le Dragon"
AL: Aldazabal, Leturiondo Y Cia, Eibar * ... "Aldazabal", sometimes the trade name was not used
A. Aldazabal, Eibar * … "A.A.A."
José Aldazabal, Eibar * ... "Imperial"
Armas de Fuego, Guernica ... "Alkartasuna"
AK: Fabrica de Armas Alkartasuna, SA, Guernica ... "Alkar", "Kapitan"
V. Fabrica De Armas, Durango ... "Vencedor"
AE: La Armeria Elgoibaresa, Eligobar ... "Lusitania"
Apaoloza Hermanos, Zumorraga ... "Apaoloza", "Triomphe"
Apaolozo Hermanos, Eibar ... "Paramount"
Arana y Cia, Eibar ... "El Cano"
Ariola Hermanos, Eibar ... "Ariola"
A: Gaspar Arizaga, Eibar ... "Arizaga", "Misdial", "Pinkerton", "Warwinch", sometimes the trade names were not used
AG: Francisco Arizmendi y Goenaga, Eibar ... "Ideal", "Roland", "Brunswig"
Arizmendi y Goenaga, Eibar ... "F.A.", "F.A.G.", "Teuf-Teuf", "Waldman"
AZ: Arizmendi, Zulaica y Cia, Eibar ... "Cebra", some may be over stamped "Beistegui Hermanos"
Francisco Arizmendi, Eibar ... "Arizmendi", "Roland", "Singer", "Victor", "Ydeal"
F. Arizmendi, Eibar ... "Boltun", "Guerre", "Kaba Special"
Armero Espacialitas Reunidos, Eibar ... "Alfa", "Omega"
Hijos de C. Arrizabalaga, Eibar ... "Arrizabalaga", "Campeon", "Especial"
J. Arrizabalaga, Eibar ... "Esmi"
AA: Azanza y Arrizabalaga, Eibar * … "A.A. Reims", "Modelo 1916"
HCA: Hijos de Calixto Arrizabamaga, Eibar ... "Sharpshooter", "Terrible"
EA: Arostegui Eulogio, Eibar ... "Azul", "E.A.", "Oscillant-Azu"
S. Arostegui, Eibar ... "Browreduit"
Aspiri y Cia, Eibar ... "Avion", "Colon"
Astra Unceta y Cia, Guernica ... "Astra", "Cadix", "Camper"
Barrenechea y Gallastegui, Eibar ... "Barrenechea"
Hijos de Jorge Bascaran, Eibar ... "Marke", "Martigny"
MA: Martin Bascaran, Eibar ... "Martian", "Thunder M1919"
MB: Fa de Martin A. Bascaran, Eibar ... "Martian"
BH: Beistegui Hermanos, Eibar ... "Beistegui", "B.H.", "Bulwark", "Libia", "Paramount", "1914 Model Automatic Pistol"
BC: Victor Bernedo y Cia, Eibar ... "B.C.", "Bernedo", sometimes the trade names were not used
VB: Victor Bernado y Cia, Eibar. No trade names used. *Some may have extended barrels*
BA: Fab. de Bersaluzze Arieto-Aurena Y Cia, Eibar ... "Allies"
GB: Gregorio Bolumburo, Eibar ... "Deluxe", "Gloria", "Giralda", "Marina", "Regent", "Regina", "Rex"
G. Bolumburu, Eibar ... "Bolumburo", "Bristol"
Crucelegui Hermanos, Eibar ... "Brong Petit", "Bron-Sport", "C.H.", "Le Brong", "Puppy"
JE: Javier Echaniz, Eibar ... "Defender"
Echave y Arizmendi, Eibar ... "Basque", "Bronco", "E.A.", "Echasa", "Lightning", "Lur-Panzer", "Pathfinder", "Protector", "Renard", "Selecta M1918", "Selecta M1919", "Vite M1913", "Vite M1914", "Vite M1915"
I: Bonifacio Echeverria, Eibar ... "Estrella", "Izarra", "Star", "Vesta"
HE: Hijos de A. Echeverria, Eibar ... "Vesta" (code may also be marked on slide), "Izarro"
EC: Ergulaga y Cia, Eibar ... "Fiel"
Manuel Escodin, Eibar ... "Escodin"
Esperanza y Cia, Guernica ... "Astra"
Esperanza y Unceta, Eibar ... "Astra:, "Campo Giro"
EU: Esperanza y Unceta, Guernica ... "Model 1915" ( or 1916 ), "Astra Patent", "Brunswig Model 1916", "Victory"
Antonio Errasti, Eibar ... "Dreadnought", "Errasti", "Oicet", "Smith Americano"
A. Errasti, Eibar ... "Broncho"
Esprin Hermanos, Eibar ... "Euskaro"
Gabilondo y Cia, Eibar or Elgoibar ... "Danton", "Guisasola", "Mugica", "Perfect", "Plus Extra"
GU: Gabilondo y Urresti, Eibar or Elgoibar ... "Bufalo", "Gabilondos", "Radium", "Ruby", "Ruby Extra", "Tauler"
Fab. de Armas Garantizada, Eibar ... "Apache", "Garantizada", "Rural"
GN: Garate, Anitua y Cia, Eibar ... "Danton", "El Lunar", "Express", "GAC", "Garate", "G.N.", "La Lira", "L'Eclair", "Sprinter", "Tigre", "Triumph"
Garate Hermanos, Eibar or Ermua ... "Cantabria", "Velostark"
Gastanaga, Trocaola y Cia, Eibar ... "T.A.C.", "Trocaola"
IG: Isidrio Gatzanaga, Eibar ... "Destroyer", "Gazantanaga", "Horse Destroyer", "Indian", "Sureté"
IS: Iraola y Salaverria y Cia ... No trade names used
Fab. d'armes de Grande Précision, Eibar ... "Bulwark", "Colonial", "Grande Précision", "Helvece", "Jupiter", "Minerve", "Trust"
Guisasola Hermanos, Eibar ... "G.H.", "Guisasola"
LC: Laplana y Capdevila ... Trade names are unknown
Larranaga y Elartza, Eibar ... "Jubala", "L.E."
LH: Lasangabaster Hermanos, Eibar ... "Douglas"
Lascauren y Olasola, Eibar ... "El Perro"
Manufactura de Armas "Demon", Eibar ... "Demon"
Mendiola, Eibar ... "Vainquer"
Erquiaga Muguruzu y Cia, Eibar ... "Diane", "Fiel"
Urquiaga y Muguruzu, Eibar ... "Marte"
Obrea Hermanos, Eibar ... "Colon", "Iris", "La Industrial", "O.H.", "Orbea", "Perfecto"
Cooperativa Obrera, Eibar ... "Longines"
IO: La Industria Obrea, Eibar ... No trade names used
Ojanguren y Marcaido, Eibar ... "Brow", "O.M."
Ojanguren y Vidosa, Eibar ... "Apache", "Crucero", "Furia", "Militar Y Policia", "Ojanguren", "Puppet", "Salvaje", "Tanque"
Onandia Hermanos, Eibar ... "Onandia"
F. Ormachea, Eibar ... "Bron-Grand", "Duan", "Merke"
Orueta Hermanos, Eibar ... "Oculto", "Tanker"
RH: Retolaza Hermanos, Eibar ... "Brompetier", "Gallus", "Liberty", "Military", "Paramount", "Puppy", "Retolaza M1914", "Stosel", "Titan", "Titanic", "Titanic M1914", "Velo-Brom", "1914 Model Automatic Pistol"
Santiago Salaberrin, Eibar ... "Etna", "Invicta", "Protector", "Tisan", "Unis"
Iraola Salaverria y Cia, Eibar ... "Destructor", "Iraola", "Salaverria"
Casimir Santos, Eibar ... "El Cid", "Vencedor"
MS: Modesto Santos, Eibar … "Action", "M.S."
S.E.A.M., Eibar ... "Praga", "Regent", "Silesia", "Sivispacem", "Waco"
Suinaga y Aramperri, Eibar ... "S&A"
Unceta y Cia, Guernica ... "Brunswig", "Fortuna", "Leston", "Liégeoise", "Museum", "Salso", "Union", "Victoria"
Union Armera Eibaressa, Eibar ... "U.A.E."
Union Fab. de Armas, Eibar ... "Rival M1913"
Tomas de Urizar, Eibar or Barcelona ... "Continental", "Dek-Du", "Express", "Imperial", "La Basque", "Le Secours", "Phoenix", "Premier", "Princeps", "Puma", "Union", "Venus"
UC: Urrejola y Cia, Eibar ... "U.C.", "Urrejola"
ZC: Zulaica y Compania or Cia, Eibar ... "Royal", "Victory", "Vincitor M1914", "Vincitor M1914 No.2", "Zulaica M1914"
Zuloga y Cia, Eibar ... "Volontaire"
Zumorraga y Cia, Eibar ... "Paramount"
CU: unknown
CZ: unknown
RG: unknown
TM: unknown
VD: unknown
Unknown Makers ... "Aurora", "Boix", "Burgham Superior", "Ca-Si", "Cobra", "Mosser", "Muxi", "Oyez", "Peerless", "Rayon", "R.E.", "Reform", "Republic", "Rex", "S.M.", "Tatra", "Velo-Mith", "Velosmith", "Vilar", "Vulcain", "Zwylacka"
 
#21 ·
What you have is actually a scarce and well made pistol manufactured by Star around the late 1909 or 1910 timeframe. It is a Star Model Numero 2, There are a few variations, and the 6.35 mm ones, which I have yet to see one personally, is either 113 mm in length or 122 mm. This one is a trade pistol with the Bronnie Tradename and unofficial proofs used by Star. The slide legend was also spruced up to give it a Belgian flair. It was this pistol that got Star in some trouble with FN. Bonafacio Echeverria was included as a party in the 1912 lawsuit FN lodged against Eibar manufactures making Browning copies, and where all of the other makers were producing actual copies of the Browning, this pistol got caught up I think because of the deceptive name and markings. The barrel locking system and several other features in no way resemble a Browning. I wrote a five page article on the Bronnie for Automag, the magazine for NAPCA. PM me and I can send you a pdf of it. BTW, I have never seen these grips either. My Bronnie has the Star scalloped grips except the Star is missing. Others have the same Star grip as the Star branded N-2. Bronnie by the way, was the only time that I am aware of that Star at least before WWII made a trade pistol (A Star under another name.)
 
#24 ·
Okay I am confused now. If you had these photos, showing it as a STAR, why did we go through all these posts? I know nothing about Spanish guns, but can spot a fake Browning a mile away...

Anthony
 
#26 ·
Anthony,
I previously showed in a previous post a photo of the Star pistol with a Spanish engraving ...



But I didn't know who the manufacturer of the pistol Bronnie .

P.S. I am interested to see how the mechanism is made inside this Star Model 2 pistol ?

Vaclav
 
#25 ·
This is too time consuming for me. So I will close with some more ideas about the PHOENIX pistol.

The "Made in Belgium" mark can be taken lightly as there were no government guidelines at that time, especially if the pistol was Liege proofed. It would have been easy for the reseller/exporter to mark it that way and in no way violate any laws.

If it was indeed a Spanish-Belgian collaboration, the parts may have made in Spain, and assembled in Liege, or just imported fully assembled before going to the Liege proof house.

In the (old) Liege trade such a crown was known as "The Regina Crown" or "Regina mark" and is always a mark of Spanish or foreign manufacture. It is always a tell tale sign of an import as that motive was not used. Crowns were not used, I suspect there was a reason.

Anthony
 
#33 ·
This thread has taken about three directions: Thieme & Edeler, Phoenix, and the Bronnie.

About the Bronnie, Vaclav- thanks for that picture of 23960. That was taken from a Rock Island auction around the same time I bought my Bronnie from RIA. Unless I am mistaken, that pistol is a 7.65 and not a 6.35 mm. I have it listed and pictured in my article.

AV- I'd cut Vaclav some slack, the posted Bronnie pics are dark, and it looks very much like a regular Eibar style pistol at first glance. Even Dr. Antaris doesn't mention them in his book. Unless you were real familiar with the scarce Star N-2, you would miss it.

Regarding the Phoenix, I have not yet studied this pistol but Albrecht Simon, a German author of a book on Basque pistols, listed one as Spanish. It seems to me at initial glance that there were both Spanish and Belgian Phoenix pistols.

Regarding Thieme & Edeler. These two were Germans who set up shop in Eibar, not Belgium or France or Germany, although they may have had agents or offices there. They were retailers and distributors and sold Spanish pistols worldwide. They also acted as agents for several German firms in Spain. They were big players in Spain up to the Spanish Civil War. Their company later became SEAM, a larger retailer on par with GECO and AKAH. Below is the opening paragraph of my section on the firm taken from the draft on my multi volume work on Spanish pistols.

Thieme & Edeler was one of the most important and influential firms in Eibar during the heyday of the automatic pistol industry there. The company was founded by two German partners, Adolfo Thieme Ganem and William Edeler Funk, and were nicknamed "the Germans" by the locals in Eibar. Thieme was involved in the industry as early as 1897 when he was one of the partners in the German firm Nimrod Gewerhfabrik, Thieme & Sclegelmich. These two Germans established their partnership in 1909 according to a later advertisement and never made any pistols, but rather contracted them out. On the positive side, they became assimilated in Basque society, learned the language, adopted Spanish spellings of their names, and socialized with the people of their adopted town. On the negative side, they were known as ruthless businessmen, who drove hard bargains with the small workshops around Eibar.
 
#35 ·
AV- I'd cut Vaclav some slack
Posing a question is not an affront or an insult, it is and remains a question. I am tired of people looking for any angle to get in somebody's face.



Update: Freehouse revealed his identity in private emails. It is all clear to me now.
 
#34 ·
Robert,
Thank you very much for this detailed information !
That's how it turns out Thieme & Edeler were ruthless arms dealers .
Robert were you aware that Thieme & Edeler had patented "Victoria Arms & co" trademark ?

Look at this ad....



is it possible that this is an agent of Thieme & Edeler ?


Regards,
Vaclav
 
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