Gentlemen
This topic is dedicated to the results of research on pistols Phoenix Arms patent .
Here will be posted the conclusions of my research on these pistols .
And so we have the H.Rosier stamp on the trigger guard .
This stamp is exactly the same as the one on the trigger guard of the Melior 1909 pistol.
Therefore it is an invention of H.Rosier !
I know at the moment 5 patents of Henry Rosier .
These are two patents from 1908 and 1912, which were invented by Monsieur L.Robar
Plus the 1923 patent Is a revolver with a folding handle . Later this revolver is known as the "NOVO" revolver"
As well as a patent for the automatic mechanism of the rifle in 1923 .
It is assumed that about 4,000 pistols of this model were produced .
Presumably up to the serial number 1600, all pistols of this model of Phoenix pistols were Liege proof marking and stamped with the Henry Rosier stamp .
We can also observe two different brands on the slide :
= Victoria Arms Co =
and
Phoenix Arms - Patent
The = Victoria Arms Co = trademark That we can see on the earliest known serial number of this pistol was patented by Thieme & Edeler on may 31, 1913 ,
and the Phoenix Arms - Patent trademark was Patented on November 8, 1914 by three people, Henry Rosier, Emil Vanal and Smeets Eugene . These last two probably signed the document as witnesses, and interested associates .
Between the observed pistols with these different brands, the interval is only 60 serial numbers .
So the time of production and sale of these pistols falls on this period between 1913-1914.
Why was the name of the pistol changed ?
Adolf Thieme and Willy Edeler were two German arms distributors located at 63 rue Wazon Liege, in Belgium,
who moved to Eibar after world war I and founded a weapons trading firm .
Before world war I, T&E were major sellers of Spanish weapons .
They were one of the main sellers of ASTRA-Unceta y Cía, which sold pistols under the Victoria brand .
They shared this business with another major seller, Eduardo Schilling S. en C. from Barcelona .
Almost all products were sold by these two trading companies .
The firm of Thieme & Edeler, obtained sales rights for Belgium and Austria,
and Eduardo Schilling received a concession for the French and German markets .
There was a lot of competition between sellers and to improve sales, these trading companies asked manufacturers to put their own brands on the pistols .
For this purpose, T&E registered another trademark to hide the Spanish origin of the guns from the buyer and thus deceiving the buyer .
It was a trademark :
Manufacture Liégeoise darmes á feu.soc.An
Liége (Bélgique) Patent Nº51. 350
This strategy of deception angered the manufacturers and as soon as these violations were proven,
the relationship between J. Esperanza and P. Unceta and Thieme & Edeler cooled and, in 1914, these firms terminated the contract .
When T&E lost its credibility, Henry Rosier also followed the example of J. Esperanza and P. Unceta ,
and for this reason registered the Phoenix Arms-Patent trademark in 1914 .
It is likely that the pistols made by Tomas de Urizar were marked and sold under the name Phoenix by the firm of Tim and Ede after the termination of the contract with Rosier .
Vaclav
Vriesen
This topic is dedicated to the results of research on pistols Phoenix Arms patent .
Here will be posted the conclusions of my research on these pistols .
And so we have the H.Rosier stamp on the trigger guard .
This stamp is exactly the same as the one on the trigger guard of the Melior 1909 pistol.
Therefore it is an invention of H.Rosier !
I know at the moment 5 patents of Henry Rosier .
These are two patents from 1908 and 1912, which were invented by Monsieur L.Robar
Plus the 1923 patent Is a revolver with a folding handle . Later this revolver is known as the "NOVO" revolver"
As well as a patent for the automatic mechanism of the rifle in 1923 .
It is assumed that about 4,000 pistols of this model were produced .
Presumably up to the serial number 1600, all pistols of this model of Phoenix pistols were Liege proof marking and stamped with the Henry Rosier stamp .
We can also observe two different brands on the slide :
= Victoria Arms Co =
and
Phoenix Arms - Patent
The = Victoria Arms Co = trademark That we can see on the earliest known serial number of this pistol was patented by Thieme & Edeler on may 31, 1913 ,
and the Phoenix Arms - Patent trademark was Patented on November 8, 1914 by three people, Henry Rosier, Emil Vanal and Smeets Eugene . These last two probably signed the document as witnesses, and interested associates .
Between the observed pistols with these different brands, the interval is only 60 serial numbers .
So the time of production and sale of these pistols falls on this period between 1913-1914.
Why was the name of the pistol changed ?
Adolf Thieme and Willy Edeler were two German arms distributors located at 63 rue Wazon Liege, in Belgium,
who moved to Eibar after world war I and founded a weapons trading firm .
Before world war I, T&E were major sellers of Spanish weapons .
They were one of the main sellers of ASTRA-Unceta y Cía, which sold pistols under the Victoria brand .
They shared this business with another major seller, Eduardo Schilling S. en C. from Barcelona .
Almost all products were sold by these two trading companies .
The firm of Thieme & Edeler, obtained sales rights for Belgium and Austria,
and Eduardo Schilling received a concession for the French and German markets .
There was a lot of competition between sellers and to improve sales, these trading companies asked manufacturers to put their own brands on the pistols .
For this purpose, T&E registered another trademark to hide the Spanish origin of the guns from the buyer and thus deceiving the buyer .
It was a trademark :
Manufacture Liégeoise darmes á feu.soc.An
Liége (Bélgique) Patent Nº51. 350
This strategy of deception angered the manufacturers and as soon as these violations were proven,
the relationship between J. Esperanza and P. Unceta and Thieme & Edeler cooled and, in 1914, these firms terminated the contract .
When T&E lost its credibility, Henry Rosier also followed the example of J. Esperanza and P. Unceta ,
and for this reason registered the Phoenix Arms-Patent trademark in 1914 .
It is likely that the pistols made by Tomas de Urizar were marked and sold under the name Phoenix by the firm of Tim and Ede after the termination of the contract with Rosier .
Vaclav
Vriesen