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Thread: Phoenix Arms patent Mr H.Rosier

  1. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by VAC View Post
    Anthony, Thank you .

    I have summarized the results of my research here .
    I could have written more here, but the site has been experiencing crashes recently , and before I was able to write all this, I had to re-log in to the site many times .

    The transactions of these particular sellers are documented and published by well-known authors of books about Spanish weapons .
    These authors include Robert Adair whom I trust .
    There are specific figures that say how many weapons were sold and where .

    Documentary fact confirms that these pistols Phoenix Arms - Patent invented Rosier .

    The manufacturers of Liege did not violate the law . While the Liege proof-house did not work,
    in order to somehow hold out they had to sell their goods without the proof marking .
    Or do you think that 1,407 Phoenix pistols without proof markings were simply distributed to poor workers who were at home at the time making costume jewelry instead of weapons ?
    In order to survive, several co-operatives were set up to distribute work to gunsmiths to make toys, costume jewelry, jewelry boxes, or decorative paper knives.


    A good example of the sale of Belgian weapons without Liege markings even after 1924 is the Melior pistol sold by the company Akah and put their own stamp on this pistol .

    It was Thieme & Edeler who gave the Spanish weapons to the Liege proof house for testing .
    Attachment 628285



    Regards,
    Vaclav
    Hi Vaclav,

    You have obviously formed an opinion based on deduction on how this progressed. I believe that you make the assumption that a Belgian inventor, who has a patent, made their guns in Liege. Having a patent does not mean that it is Belgian made. The link to Spanish manufacture is already there and it appears obvious to me that the unproofed pistols were not in Belgium and not sold in Belgium and therefor did not require Belgian proofing. The fact that some have Rosier's stamp on it is no indication of where it was manufactured. The assumption that Rosier's stamp was lost in the war and that therefor some are unmarked is odd to me. If they can make a gun and mark it, they certainly can make a dye.

    I strongly disagree with you that some manufacturers circumvented Belgian laws and got pistols on the market without Liege proofing. The postwar situation in Belgium did not allow for much or any manufacturing in the first months after armistice. You may assume that those three / four months between armistice and reopening of the proof-house gave ample opportunities to manufacture or assemble pistols, but facts in the region did not allow for much work in any factory. There has never been a proof house or legal exemption issued at that time, and there is historical evidence that inspectors did work on location of manufacturers when the proof-house was not able to do the work (being closed).

    From my experience/research in the Liege trade, it appears to me that these were made in Spain, imported and marked in Belgium, and Liege proofed (as required by law) in the pre-WWI era, and that the remnants (unproofed) never made it to Belgium for various reasons, most likely the war.

    The word "patent" alone had no bearing in the Belgian legal system and was not an indication that something was patented in Belgium. It makes me wonder if Rosier had a Belgian patent, why he did not mark his pistols accordingly to protect the design.
    Many used trademarks (registered and unregistered) with the word "patent" for their export market, but this was done for marketing purposes only.

    My advise to you would be to familiarize yourself with the strict Belgian proofing system and practices and make inquiries at the Liege museum if they have surviving records that may pertain to these. I am not saying that it is easy work or information to come by, but I caution you on relying on the internet for your work.

    It is a fascinating and difficult topic. Good luck and I look forward to your book.

    Anthony
    Author of FN Browning Pistols, FN Mauser Rifles, Holsters & Shoulder-Stocks of the World
    Co-author of Allied Rifle Contracts, Browning Auto-5 Shotguns
    Publisher of VIS Radom, The FN-49
    www.fnbrowning.com

  2. #12
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    fascinating read from all.
    Sam.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony Vanderlinden View Post
    Hi Vaclav,

    You have obviously formed an opinion based on deduction on how this progressed. I believe that you make the assumption that a Belgian inventor, who has a patent, made their guns in Liege. Having a patent does not mean that it is Belgian made. The link to Spanish manufacture is already there and it appears obvious to me that the unproofed pistols were not in Belgium and not sold in Belgium and therefor did not require Belgian proofing. The fact that some have Rosier's stamp on it is no indication of where it was manufactured. The assumption that Rosier's stamp was lost in the war and that therefor some are unmarked is odd to me. If they can make a gun and mark it, they certainly can make a dye.

    I strongly disagree with you that some manufacturers circumvented Belgian laws and got pistols on the market without Liege proofing. The postwar situation in Belgium did not allow for much or any manufacturing in the first months after armistice. You may assume that those three / four months between armistice and reopening of the proof-house gave ample opportunities to manufacture or assemble pistols, but facts in the region did not allow for much work in any factory. There has never been a proof house or legal exemption issued at that time, and there is historical evidence that inspectors did work on location of manufacturers when the proof-house was not able to do the work (being closed).

    From my experience/research in the Liege trade, it appears to me that these were made in Spain, imported and marked in Belgium, and Liege proofed (as required by law) in the pre-WWI era, and that the remnants (unproofed) never made it to Belgium for various reasons, most likely the war.

    The word "patent" alone had no bearing in the Belgian legal system and was not an indication that something was patented in Belgium. It makes me wonder if Rosier had a Belgian patent, why he did not mark his pistols accordingly to protect the design.
    Many used trademarks (registered and unregistered) with the word "patent" for their export market, but this was done for marketing purposes only.

    My advise to you would be to familiarize yourself with the strict Belgian proofing system and practices and make inquiries at the Liege museum if they have surviving records that may pertain to these. I am not saying that it is easy work or information to come by, but I caution you on relying on the internet for your work.

    It is a fascinating and difficult topic. Good luck and I look forward to your book.

    Anthony
    Anthony,
    It's enough for Me that some Phoenix pistols are marked with German nitro markings made during the German occupation .
    And of course any research involves a method of deduction .
    The connection of Henry rosier with Spanish manufacturers is of course traceable .
    Otherwise, his patent would not have been used by Spanish manufacturers and not only by Spaniards .

    I like your doubts about the Belgian origin of this pistol .

    Can you question the origin of the 7.65 caliber Melior pistol produced under the Record brand whose existence you know and say that it is Spanish made ?
    Or can you question the Melior 6.35 caliber model 1914 pistol which has a loaded chamber indicator like on the Spanish Victoria pistols made by J. Esperanza and P. Unceta ?
    Using ready-made production technologies and inventions on a legal basis is a common practice . As well as creating books based on already written books .

    The word "patent" used by Rosier in a trademark registered in Belgium is most likely a marketing ploy that's what I think .

    To question the registration of the Belgian patent for this Phoenix pistol I consider stupid because I trust my eyes .
    This patent is registered in Belgium with the same witness as when registering previous inventions .

    I like good advice and if I think it's appropriate I always follow it .
    So I want to say a big thank you .

    In parallel with the work on the article, I conduct further research and enjoy using the method of deduction in this research and in life .
    I don't see the point in further discussion if there are no facts that help the investigation .

    Work on the book is slow due to long-term treatment several months ago .
    I hope everything will be all right now .


    Regards,
    Vaclav

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoebuff View Post
    fascinating read from all.
    I hope you learned something useful for yourself .


    Vaclav

  5. #15
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    Gentlemen,
    I suggest you read an article about two Phoenix pistols created under the patents of Henry Rosier published on the site of Ed Buffaloe .

    https://unblinkingeye.com/Guns/Phoenix/phoenix.html

    This story has become much more informative and interesting thanks to my friends Ed Buffaloe and Robert Adair .
    I want to thank them very much for their inspiration , support, and help in finding new documents and editing text .


    Regards,
    Vaclav Vriesen

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