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Thread: Phoenix Arms patent Mr H.Rosier

  1. #1
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    Default Phoenix Arms patent Mr H.Rosier

    Gentlemen
    This topic is dedicated to the results of research on pistols Phoenix Arms patent .



    n2.jpg

    Here will be posted the conclusions of my research on these pistols .
    And so we have the H.Rosier stamp on the trigger guard .
    This stamp is exactly the same as the one on the trigger guard of the Melior 1909 pistol.
    Therefore it is an invention of H.Rosier !
    I know at the moment 5 patents of Henry Rosier .
    These are two patents from 1908 and 1912, which were invented by Monsieur L.Robar
    Plus the 1923 patent Is a revolver with a folding handle . Later this revolver is known as the "NOVO" revolver"
    novo.jpg
    As well as a patent for the automatic mechanism of the rifle in 1923 .
    US1520671-0.jpg
    It is assumed that about 4,000 pistols of this model were produced .
    Presumably up to the serial number 1600, all pistols of this model of Phoenix pistols were Liege proof marking and stamped with the Henry Rosier stamp .
    We can also observe two different brands on the slide :

    = Victoria Arms Co = legend 1.jpg

    and

    Phoenix Arms - Patent legend 2.jpg



    Phoenix victoria.jpg
    The = Victoria Arms Co = trademark That we can see on the earliest known serial number of this pistol was patented by Thieme & Edeler on may 31, 1913 ,
    and the
    Phoenix Arms - Patent trademark was Patented on November 8, 1914 by three people, Henry Rosier, Emil Vanal and Smeets Eugene . These last two probably signed the document as witnesses, and interested associates .

    Between the observed pistols with these different brands, the interval is only 60 serial numbers .
    So the time of production and sale of these pistols falls on this period between 1913-1914.

    Why was the name of the pistol changed ?


    Adolf Thieme and Willy Edeler were two German arms distributors located at 63 rue Wazon Liege, in Belgium,
    who moved to Eibar after world war I and founded a weapons trading firm .

    Before world war I, T&E were major sellers of Spanish weapons .
    They were one of the main sellers of ASTRA-Unceta y Cía, which sold pistols under the Victoria brand .
    They shared this business with another major seller, Eduardo Schilling S. en C. from Barcelona .

    Almost all products were sold by these two trading companies .
    The firm of Thieme & Edeler, obtained sales rights for Belgium and Austria,
    and Eduardo Schilling received a concession for the French and German markets .

    There was a lot of competition between sellers and to improve sales, these trading companies asked manufacturers to put their own brands on the pistols .
    For this purpose, T&E registered another trademark to hide the Spanish origin of the guns from the buyer and thus deceiving the buyer .
    It was a trademark :

    Manufacture Liégeoise darmes á feu.soc.An
    Liége (Bélgique) Patent Nº51. 350

    51.jpg

    This strategy of deception angered the manufacturers and as soon as these violations were proven,
    the relationship between J. Esperanza and P. Unceta and Thieme & Edeler cooled and, in 1914, these firms terminated the contract .


    When T&E lost its credibility, Henry Rosier also followed the example of J. Esperanza and P. Unceta ,
    and for this reason registered the Phoenix Arms-Patent trademark in 1914 .




    It is likely that the pistols made by Tomas de Urizar were marked and sold under the name Phoenix by the firm of Tim and Ede after the termination of the contract with Rosier .




    Vaclav
    Vriesen





    Last edited by VAC; 06-21-2020 at 08:13 PM.

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    As I wrote above, up to the serial number 1600, all pistols of this model Phoenix pistols had Liege markings and were stamped with the Henry Rosier stamp .
    n2.jpg
    The serial number 1650 is already missing the proof mark.
    №1650а.jpg
    This pistol with the serial number 1650 was probably assembled from the remaining parts after the end of the first world war .

    Belgian workers refused to work EN masse under the occupation. A large number of them were deported to Germany for forced labor.
    During the occupation, the Liege proof-house did not work.
    The documentation was burned in 1918.
    The first post-war shooting in the Liege proof-house took place only on February 24, 1919.
    Therefore, many post-war pistols do not have a proof mark .

    The pistol with the serial number 2046 is not even stamped with the Henry Rosier stamp .
    Probably this stamp was also lost during the war .
    №2046а.jpg

    It is likely that not being able to restore production it was Henry Rosier who took the last details of the Melior pistols from Louis Robar ,
    and went to America to set up his business .

    Thus, Melior pistols were made in America and were marked with the trademark "Phoenix patent" registered by Henry Rosier .
    Phoenix patent.jpg




    Vaclav
    Vriesen


  3. #3

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    Which proof house burned down in 1918?
    Author of FN Browning Pistols, FN Mauser Rifles, Holsters & Shoulder-Stocks of the World
    Co-author of Allied Rifle Contracts, Browning Auto-5 Shotguns
    Publisher of VIS Radom, The FN-49
    www.fnbrowning.com

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    Désolé Anthony ,
    Don't worry, only the documentation was burned in 1918.
    I will now correct and Supplement the text , and you can correct it if you see an error .


    Vaclav

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    Vac, an excellent presentation on these Phoenix pistols. All the information I have on these Belgium pistols are from you! I expect a book from all this research?
    Joe
    JOSEPH MAY

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    Quote Originally Posted by english View Post
    Vac, an excellent presentation on these Phoenix pistols. All the information I have on these Belgium pistols are from you! I expect a book from all this research?
    Joe
    Joe,
    This information should not be published yet .
    These are my logical conclusions of the study .
    I don't have enough documentary evidence . I hope I find something else to support my conclusions .
    But the truth is near .
    Don't judge too seriously yet .

    For many years, no one tried to find out the details of the origin of this interesting and very rare pistol .
    Most often, everyone just copies information from each other .



    Thank you ,
    Vaclav

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    Only a few hours had passed, and now, thanks to Ed Buffaloe , my logical conclusions were confirmed .
    Yes, it's Henry Rosier patent !
    Now I know 6 patents of Henry Rosier .
    Ed , thank you so much for supporting me in this research !


    Regards,
    Vaclav Vriesen

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    Later, you will probably be able to read a detailed article .
    And of course I will include this discovery in my notes .

    Vaclav
    Vriesen

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by VAC View Post

    The first post-war shooting in the Liege proof-house took place only on February 24, 1919.
    Therefore, many post-war pistols do not have a proof mark .


    Hello Vaclav, I congratulate you on your efforts on difficult research. These are difficult topics and the dealings of a lot of these arms dealers and makers are obscure. I hope that you will have more than just hunches and conclusions before putting things in print.

    I can not comment on what Rosier did or not, but am 100% certain that no Liege arms maker would produce and sell guns without Liege proofing. The consequences were too great, including loss of business rights as well as criminal charges. I am 100% certain that there were no pistols released on the market unproofed, so I kindly dispute your statement that many pistols were made without proofs.

    The infiltration of Spanish made guns and parts in the Liege area are well known and was not generally accepted, that is why proofing was changed in 1924 to reflect those import parts.

    Anthony
    Author of FN Browning Pistols, FN Mauser Rifles, Holsters & Shoulder-Stocks of the World
    Co-author of Allied Rifle Contracts, Browning Auto-5 Shotguns
    Publisher of VIS Radom, The FN-49
    www.fnbrowning.com

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony Vanderlinden View Post
    Hello Vaclav, I congratulate you on your efforts on difficult research. These are difficult topics and the dealings of a lot of these arms dealers and makers are obscure. I hope that you will have more than just hunches and conclusions before putting things in print.

    I can not comment on what Rosier did or not, but am 100% certain that no Liege arms maker would produce and sell guns without Liege proofing. The consequences were too great, including loss of business rights as well as criminal charges. I am 100% certain that there were no pistols released on the market unproofed, so I kindly dispute your statement that many pistols were made without proofs.

    The infiltration of Spanish made guns and parts in the Liege area are well known and was not generally accepted, that is why proofing was changed in 1924 to reflect those import parts.

    Anthony
    Anthony, Thank you .

    I have summarized the results of my research here .
    I could have written more here, but the site has been experiencing crashes recently , and before I was able to write all this, I had to re-log in to the site many times .

    The transactions of these particular sellers are documented and published by well-known authors of books about Spanish weapons .
    These authors include Robert Adair whom I trust .
    There are specific figures that say how many weapons were sold and where .

    Documentary fact confirms that these pistols Phoenix Arms - Patent invented Rosier .

    The manufacturers of Liege did not violate the law . While the Liege proof-house did not work,
    in order to somehow hold out they had to sell their goods without the proof marking .
    Or do you think that 1,407 Phoenix pistols without proof markings were simply distributed to poor workers who were at home at the time making costume jewelry instead of weapons ?
    In order to survive, several co-operatives were set up to distribute work to gunsmiths to make toys, costume jewelry, jewelry boxes, or decorative paper knives.


    A good example of the sale of Belgian weapons without Liege markings even after 1924 is the Melior pistol sold by the company Akah and put their own stamp on this pistol .

    It was Thieme & Edeler who gave the Spanish weapons to the Liege proof house for testing .
    130a.jpg



    Regards,
    Vaclav

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