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Buying handguns overseas - import information needed

22K views 28 replies 9 participants last post by  Michael Zeleny 
#1 ·
Hi all,

I've searched this board and the Internet in general for several days trying to find any information relating to the process of purchasing collectible guns from overseas dealers and having them imported in the U.S.

So far, I've gathered that:

- One must arrange with a federally licensed import dealer here in the US to handle the transaction.

- It can cost quite a bit of money.

- It can take quite a while.

Specifics have, somewhat surprisingly to me, been hard to come by. I have learned that Simpson Ltd. handles importing and I've seen them mentioned here a few times. In the only archived thread I found that dealt exclusively with the question of importing, Pete Ebbink said that Simpson's import marking is "very, very, very small". Pete, could you offer a dimension so I can tell exactly how noticeable it would be?

As you may tell, I'm pretty lost and I'd really appreciate it if someone who has actually gone through the process could give a detailed account of how things work and any tips on keeping it as smooth a process as possible.

If you spot a gun that you wish to purchase from an overseas dealer, whom do you approach first - that dealer or your importer?

Aside from fully automatic guns, which I realize are not importable, are there any restrictions on modern firearms being imported to the U.S.? Are they all importable provided the proper paperwork is done on both ends? Are there any guns that are not required to be defaced with the abominable "import mark"?

Ladies and gentlemen, I would really be grateful for any detailed info/advice you can offer. Thank you.
 
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G
#2 ·
Hello Bob,

Without going into to much detail, I can briefly explain the following information with you:

1) If you happen to have a valid C&R license, the BATF Imports Department will allow you to import a couple of C&R firearms (commercial models) a year at no fee using an ATF Form 6. It takes about 3-6 weeks to receive an approved application;
2) Any C&R firearms that is classified as a MILITARY firearm, needs to be imported by a LICENSED FFL dealer (not to be confused with an ordinary FFL dealer) and he is required to stamp the firearm with his dealer stamp;
3) Usually, import duty/tax is 10% of the invoice.
4) On average the whole process could take about six months depending how fast the overseas dealer obtains an export permit.

I hope this information gets you started on the right foot. If you require additional information, provide me your telephone at my e-mail below.

Albert
E-mail: imperialarms@att.net
Web site: www.imperial-arms.com
 
#4 ·
I have imported several guns from Norway and the process is slow. Please keep in mind that you must find an international carrier to transport the firearms and some airlines will not do it.

The last time I importd a few guns they charged me $400 to build a crate that a fork lift could load even though it was only 8 handguns. Then I had to pay the additonal shipping charges for weight, so know what you are getting into.

It might be cheaper to go through a dealer in Germany who has exported guns to the USA to save on the extra costs since Norway is not a common route for firearm sales to the USA.
 
#5 · (Edited)
Many thanks to all of you for your contributions. They are a big help.

Albert,

I am intrigued by your mention of an ATF Form 6 for limited importing of non-military firearms. I do have a C&R license and I am going to investigate this option further. Do I understand correctly that no intermediary is required - i.e., provided I have the C&R license and am licensed in my home state I can receive the firearm shipped directly to me? It sounds almost too convenient, though perhaps expensive.

Also, thanks for your contact info and kind offer of further assistance. Let me see what I can dig up on my own.


Tom,

Thanks for the tip - I will give Leroy's due consideration. Certainly looks less expensive than Simpson's.


Mark,

As far as packaging goes, I do recall reading something on the Simpson's FAQ page about the container having to be able to be easily opened for inspection by customs. But I hadn't anticipated anything quite as overboard as what you describe. Wow...

The dealers I am looking at are in France and Germany, by the way. I speak a little French, but no German at all. I hope they have some English-speaking representatives :eek:.



Once again, thank you all. Your information has given me a good place to start and I certainly don't expect anyone to do my work for me. I will begin researching the Form 6, international carriers (Mark, can you suggest any, perhaps?) and other issues.
 
#6 ·
Here is my prescription. Research comparable values and study all relevant web pages in the foreign top level domain of your concern. In my case, an interest in the SIG P210 calls for all Kessler catalogs and price lists. Here is a search query composed in accordance with my interests. Your best bet for finding an export agent is online auctions. For example, the Swiss dealers selling on Gunbroker include AfA and swissdagger. I am paying through the nose for import licenses and international courier services, but Andrew Zink and Stefan Mahrer have access to common carriers and less costly importers. Make sure that the importer that your export agents recommend will mark your gun discreetly. ATF Form 6 is only good for occasional private imports via an FFL holder, for your personal use, but no one will stop you from reselling some of your personally imported guns after a while. Good luck. Please feel free to pose further questions and requests via email or phone.
 
#7 ·
Bob,

Your exporter in Germany or France has the "pipeline" for the airlines, different than in Norway for my second shipment of Norwegian P.38's.

I had planned on selling the Norwegian slide marked P.38's (100% correct and listed in Per Mathison book by serial number) on the second shipment but for now I am holding on to them because I spent too much money on them and I have several in my private collection.

I had several guys on the first shipment who got their guns for a better price than what it cost me to import the next six.

Import markings are according to ATF rules, the Century marked guns are done on a machine and not "hand stamped" so they are beyond what the ATF requires because it is not a "family" business but done in bulk!!! On a machine!

The guns I imported were hand stamped according to the Import requiremens in a discrete place but don't have a billboard marking on my Norwegian P.38's like Century Arms puts on their guns. ... Century has mechanical import markings and a Canadian company who has ruined collectable guns going beyond the minimal requirement for profit.

Mark
 
#8 ·
Michael and Mark,

Thanks to both of you (the links are very helpful, Michael).

Any firearms I am interested in importing will likely be quite few (two or three, maybe even just one for the time being) and will be purchased solely to add to my private collection.

I'm off to read the instruction sheet for the Form 6 and will likely have a few more questions in coming days.
 
#9 ·
I had simpson import my luger arty from canada when i moved to the states. They were very helpful even though i had to re-submit the batf forms 4 times as the rules kept changing as the process went on. Mr. Wynkoop even went so far as to discreetly hand engrave their import mark in the magwell...barely noticeable if you pull the clip out and squint !
 
#10 ·
Working with Albert, I successfully imported a Sideframe marked P-Code Krieghoff aa couple of years ago. It was shipped from the exporter directly to me based on my C&R license. As noted by several postings, the process is lengthy..in my case, a year, but quite worth the wait.

Tom A
 
#12 ·
Hello Bob
I export to most continents including the USA for 3 major UK firearm auction houses - you may find the following of benefit:

Supplementary Advice For Purchasers In The USA

US clients may purchase sporting arms, antique arms (made prior to 1899) and former military / surplus curio’ and relic firearms as defined by The Gun Control Act of 1968.

Importation Guidelines and/or Requirements:

I. Antique arms made prior to 1899: No US importation documents or
import authority is required; these are classified as “Non-Firearms”
under US government rules, regulations and laws.

II. Former military / surplus curio’ & relic firearms: These are importable only in their original military configuration, and must be imported by a federally licensed (“08 Dealer FFL”) firearms importer who is also registered as an importer with Arms Export Control Act (AECA) authority. Non-importable surplus military firearms would be ones modified for sporting or target purposes; for example, an English made 30-06 bolt action sporting rifle manufactured by Webley of Birmingham using a German WWII Mauser 98 action as the basis of this rifle, would not be importable as the action is not importable due to the fact of being military surplus. However, a WWII German Mauser 98 rifle in its original factory military configuration is importable by a properly licensed US firearms importer.

III. Sporting arms, rifles and shotguns: These are importable into the United States by licensed entities. A standard (“01 Dealer FFL) may, at the discretion of BATF, “occasionally” import a sporting rifle or shotgun for a non-licensed individual. Be mindful that the FFL dealer at your local gun shop might not wish to handle the transaction since they are not usually familiar with the process nor the procedures to clear the item through US Customs. As an alternative, there are US licensed firearm importers who are familiar with the process, and can acquire import authority in a timely fashion and have the necessary business relationships to facilitate international air freight, US Customs clearance and after release from customs, forwarding of the sporting firearm to your local gun shop for transfer processing.
Harry

email: Section5supply@aol.com
website:http://www.collectible-arms.de/
 
#13 ·
Hi Charola,

My thanks for the information - your helpfulness is appreciated. Notwithstanding the many informative posts in this thread, I am still daunted by the process of having a firearm imported - mostly by the prospect of how long it takes according to some members. I really would like to explore this area further, as from time to time I locate guns overseas that I would be very interested in acquiring.

Oftentimes the language barrier alone is enough to make me discouraged; though I'm quite functional in French, I know no German at all, and most of the sources that I would like to purchase from are German. Very frustrating.
 
#14 ·
Bob, I have wondered a bit. Do you travel and come across stuff, or you are talking from on-line sites?

If on-line sites, then with all the hassels, its easier, smarter and simpler to find rare and exotic guns right here in the USA....


Ed
 
#15 ·
Ed,

A number of the sources are online dealers, yes, though from time to time there have also been a few possibilities via personal contacts - nothing that I wanted so badly as to inspire me to dive into the importing process head-first.

I guess the best way to express my feelings about importing is that I want to be familiar, comfortable and experienced with all the available avenues of acquiring collectible guns. Yes, it is quick and convenient to purchase within the U.S. - if you can find what you're looking for here - but it irks me to think that there are possibilities left unexplored, particularly if the pieces being sought are very scarce and don't pop up on Gunbroker every day.

If it ever happens that I learn of a piece abroad that I simply cannot live without, and it is able to be purchased and imported, I want to know exactly what to do and how to do it as quickly and efficiently as possible - who to contact when and in what order, what forms to fill out, etc.

I'm still not clear on exactly how the ATF Form 6 works, i.e., a) what guns can be brought in on it, b) how, if at all, the dreaded import marking requirement factors into it, c) the precise route that the gun takes from the hands to of the seller through the shipper through customs to me, etc., but I'm going to re-read this thread and try to rekindle my resolve to find out. No lack of appreciation to any of the folks who responded and may have answered any of these issues already; I may simply not have understood, but the fact is I'm still a bit confused.
 
#16 · (Edited)
Importation of handguns into America

Bob
There is one other issue you must be aware of regarding Importation of handguns into the USA - this is the "Factoring Criteria for Weapons"

This is an ATF form relating to Pistols and Revolvers ,,, acceptability into the States is based on a points system for handguns

PISTOLS qualifying score total 75 points - points are awarded for a) overall length over 6" b) Investment cast or forged steel c)investment cast or forged HTS alloy d) weight of pistol with mag unloaded per ounce
e) calibre {or as you guys say Caliber} f) safety features g)miscellaneous eg external hammer, target grips, target trigger etc.

REVOLVERS qualifying score total 45 points
points are awarded for a) barrel length b) frame construction c) weight d) calibre e) miscellaneous ie adjustable target sights , target grips and target hammer and trigger


Finally a Safety "drop" test - must be passed from a drop distance of 36" ! 5 times

To summarise most "Pocket" pistols are not importable into the USA and most classic revolvers post 1898 (Non Firearm cut of date) cannot be imported into the USA

As regards your problem purchasing items you find in Germany you may like to try my colleague in Germany - preussarms@osnanet.de who I am sure will be happy to help you when you locate something of interest.

Harry

email: Section5supply@aol.com
website: http://www.collectible-arms.de/home/index.html
 
#17 ·
Here is the point system, a pistol must score a total of 75 points.

CHARACTERISTICS POINTS

Length: for each 1/4" over 6"..... 1
Forged steel frame ...................15
Forged HTS alloy frame ............20
Unloaded wt. w/mag (per oz)...... 1
.22 short and .25 auto ........ .......0
.22 LR and 7.65mm to .380 auto. 3
9mm parabellum and over ........10
Locked breech mechanism .........5
Loaded chamber indicator.......... 5
Grip Safety ................... ............3
Magazine safety .......... .............5
Firing pin block or lock............. 10
External hammer .......................2
Double action........................... 10
Drift adjustable target sight .....10
Target grips.............................. 5
Target trigger............................ 2
 
#18 ·
Harry and Mark, thank you both for your continued input.

Regarding the "point system" for importing handguns - good god, isn't there any exception made for C&R handguns? I was under the impression that the Form 6 was specifically targeted at C&R licensees trying to build their personal collections (much like the C&R license itself).

It seems plain crazy and vindictive that the ATF would place these impossible restrictions on the international acquisition of guns that clearly have historical and collectible significance. I could understand it (though not agree with it, of course) if they were talking about recently manufactured guns, but why the bone to pick with collectors?

Way back in post #2, Albert (Luger1900) said the following:

If you happen to have a valid C&R license, the BATF Imports Department will allow you to import a couple of C&R firearms (commercial models) a year at no fee using an ATF Form 6. It takes about 3-6 weeks to receive an approved application.
That really got my hopes up, but it left a bunch of questions unanswered, and the following is still terribly unclear to me. If someone could concisely address the following, I'd be really grateful:

1) Does the ATF Form 6 allow the unfettered (though limited) importation of commercial C&R handguns regardless of how they score on the inane "point system"?

2) Does the Form 6 permit such C&R handguns to be shipped directly to your door in the same manner as we do it within the borders of the U.S.?

3) Are handguns imported using the Form 6 exempt from any import marking requirements?

Those are the Big Three questions in my mind. If anybody's up to it, it would be great to know the answers.
 
#19 ·
Bob,

No, No, NO and NO ... the import "points" have nothing to do with C&R guns, it is for ALL handguns Imported to the USA according to the GCA of 1968.

This is why we see the additonal safety lever added for TT33 type pistols that are popular now to make the "points".

(Firing pin block or lock............. 10 points)

The exporter or importer added the additional safety to comply ... to make us all more "safe" :)

Mark
 
#20 ·
Mark,

At the risk of being considered really dense (sorry :confused:), I have to make this even clearer. You wrote the following:

...the import "points" have nothing to do with C&R guns, it is for ALL handguns Imported to the USA according to the GCA of 1968.
According to my understanding of what you said above, you are saying that there are no "loopholes" in the requirement to meet the point system - in other words, ALL handguns, regardless of age or C&R status, must meet the point requirement to come into the United States from a foreign country. C&R, non-C&R, 100 years old, 5 years old - doesn't matter. Is this correct?

I thought at first that the Form 6 was something specifically intended to make things easier for collectors who are simply growing their collections and not in business (again, as I said before, much like the C&R license itself).

Because of this, I guess I expected that any firearms that are defined as curios and relics would certainly be able to be brought in on the Form 6 with no problem.

Just let me ask your verdict on a simple little hypothetical case (and then I'll shut up, I promise!!!!!! :eek:):

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that I want to import a scarce little pocket pistol being offered by a European dealer. Let's assume that there is no way in hell that the gun in question, as tiny as it is and with no "sporting" use, would satisfy the point system's requirements. However, let's assume the gun is C&R-eligible.

Can I bring this gun into the country privately on a Form 6? Or are such little guns banned forever from entering the country from a foreign source, regardless of the fact that they are defined as Curios and Relics within the borders of the United States?

Thanks for you patience and assistance, I appreciate it.
 
#22 ·
Studied this topic a little bit because this open a new possible path.

Besides Form 6, there is another trap -- Customs. I heard that Customs Broker must be present at the Customs port to clear the shipment, with the original permit.

Who will play this Customs Broker role? Must hire a 3rd party?
 
#23 ·
#24 ·
Thanks. I have another question on timing. Better illustrated as an example: I am interested in a gun listed in a future foreign auction session. Should I file a Form 6 to ATF today, or should I wait and file Form 6 after the auction session.

Either way, there is some difficulty.

(1) If file Form 6 before the auction, I won't know its exact value (required to be filled in in Form 6).

(2) If file Form 6 after the auction, what if ATF does not approve it?

Question: When to find import agent and file Form 6 in this example?
 
G
#25 ·
Very briefly:

C&R license holders are allowed to import 2-3 pre-1945 commercial firearms each year without having to use the services of a dealer or a customs broker. Just make sure that all paperwork is in order. If the pistol is less than 100 years old, US Customs will exercise a duty of about 10% of the invoice value.

Good luck
Albert
 
#26 ·
I think I got it. Filing Form 6 today. If not getting the gun, waste an approved Form (probably also waste a quota of those 2-3), but not financial cost. If not getting approved Form 6 on time, skip the bidding.

How to prove it's commercial? It carries no military stamps and there is no known government document saying it was ever issued to any military. Of course, collector community has some guesstimation. Should I simply file as commercial and let ATF decide?
 
#27 ·
Anyone who has read the entire thread is going to think I'm dumb as a stump for still being confused, but I'll risk public ridicule for the sake of clearing this up. So I have to ask again - Albert, my question is specifically directed to you, since a few minutes ago, you wrote the following:

C&R license holders are allowed to import 2-3 pre-1945 commercial firearms each year without having to use the services of a dealer or a customs broker.
But is it additionally true that those 2-3 pre-1945 commercial firearms must meet the ATF point system requirements in order to be brought into the USA? If I wish to bid on a tiny pre-1945 pocket pistol (one that would never satisfy the "point system") in a foreign auction and import that pistol into this country on a Form 6, am I plumb out of luck? Or is there some way that I can make it happen?
 
#28 ·
I also heard point system and listed on exportation list for 5 years etc. The rule of the game is a little bit complex on pocket and military guns. But probably irrelevant with the items that I am interested in.

Read Form 6 again.... On Form 6, ATF did not require applicants to evaluate the points. That's their job. Applicants simply fill in caliber, barrel length, gun length, maker, etc. God knows how their formula, but if they approve the application, it's supposed to be OK.
 
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