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Thread: DWM Unit marked, matching, no date?

  1. #1
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    Default DWM Unit marked, matching, no date?

    Here is another from my collection I want to make sure I properly describe if I decide to sell.

    It is a DWM which appears all matching, including the mag. I don't see a number on the grips, and it has no date (maybe removed during Wiemar?)
    The front grip strap has what I think is a unit mark and another that appears crossed-out.

    I'd be interested in any input on things like:
    Is it reworked?
    Why is the date gone?
    Why no number on grips?

    Thanks,
    wwiifirearms (Ray)















  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
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    Ray,

    You have a very interesting rig used by the Schutzpolizei of the city-state of Bremen. The pistol is an Alphabet DWM serial number 8595m (please confirm the suffix) manufactured in 1924 (Still, Weimar Lugers, p. 15). The lack of a chamber date and grip serial numbers is appropriate for Alphabet Lugers. It was originally manufactured as a 30-cal. commercial but rebarreled by the police who also marked the small parts in the military style. I can't tell from the photos but you will probably find that the takedown lever and sideplate are also numbered in the commercial style.

    The original grip strap marking was SP.Bn.322. (or 822 - please confirm) by the Schutzpolizei Bremen. The weapon number subsequently was changed to 282. You can find out much more about the Lugers of the Bremen Schupo in my book History Writ in Steel, Chapter 17.

    The holster is of even more interest to me and probably indicates an error in my book. It originally had a military-style buckle closure but was converted to the police-style stud closure. If I make it out correctly, it is stamped on the outside of the cover P.D.Br./1560. In Chapter 15 of my book, I have identified several similar markings as being from the Polizeidirektion Braunschweig. Although the property number on this holster does not match either of those on the pistol, their existence together adds more weight to my growing suspicion that P.D.Br. really means Polizeidirektion Bremen. The paper labels glued inside the cover are extremely intriguing. I can't make out anything that was written on them. Can you make out any of it?

    The mag is a Simson replacement.

    A very nice rig for police wonks like me.
    Best regards,
    Don
    [email protected]

    Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936
    Updated at: www.historywritinsteel.com

  3. #3
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    Ohio
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    Default

    Thanks for the great info.
    The serial number suffix is "n".
    Looks like the original grip strap marking was "SP. Bn. 822."
    The letters on the holster could be P.D.B.p. (the last letter could be a small, but not lower-case "R" that is poorly struck, making it look like "p.")
    Tags inside are very hard to read some these may not be exact, but one definately has the serial number 8595 followed by ?? "Pol" ?? "Bev" (?? meaning unreadable). Below this on the same tag is something like "Sei??dert". The small white label is onlt partial, with the first two letters "Se"
    -wwiifirearms

  4. #4
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    Ray,

    Thanks for the additional info. If the suffix is n, the pistol was most likely manufactured in the first half of 1925.

    My guess is that the holster stamp is P.D.BR. Based on your input and staring harder at the photo, I think the top line of the left paper label is 8595 S. Pol. ? Rev. (Schutzpolizei ? Revier). This would indicate the Schupo of one of the Bremen precincts. The second line of this label as well as the other label is probably the name of the police officer.

    The fact that the paper label bears the serial number of the gun definitely ties the holster to the gun from 1925 onwards. This eliminates any uncertainty in my mind about the meaning of P.D.Br. or P.D.BR. It does represent the Polizeidirektion Bremen. The holster may have been stamped on the cover with the property number of an earlier Luger and not changed when the gun was replaced.

    Thank you very much for posting this. It has allowed me to resolve a question that has been nagging at me for several years.
    Last edited by donmaus; 02-28-2010 at 02:53 PM.
    Best regards,
    Don
    [email protected]

    Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936
    Updated at: www.historywritinsteel.com

  5. #5
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    A great example of how our valued authors, who went to considerable time and expense to write their soon to be iconic works, get updates, corrections and authentications of their writing labors!
    drbuster

  6. #6
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    I bought this rig from Ray and the holster turns out to be a real treasure trove of markings.

    I was able to clean up the cloth label inside the cover (on the left in the above photo) and it actually reads 8595 22. Pol. Rev. over Seubert. 8595 is the serial number of the pistol and 22. Pol. Rev. means the 22nd Police Precinct. The officer's name was Seubert. The paper label on the right undoubtedly also had the officer's name. These markings and the sear safety on the gun definitely indicate this rig belonged to a precinct policeman in Bremen.

    There is also another marking on the outside of the holster cover under the closure strap. The x'd out weapon number 380 is clearly visible but most of marking above it is obscured by the closure stud added when the holster was converted. I can make out the last part of it as Bn. Based on similarly placed markings on other holsters from Bremen (HWIS, Fig. 17-10), it is highly likely that this marking was S.P.Bn.380. Coupled with the markings on the grip strap of the Luger, this is even further confirmation that the other marking P.D.Br.1560 on the cover, as well as similar markings on other holsters and pistols, is from the Polizeidirektion Bremen. Clearly, two different abbreviations for Bremen were in use simultaneously.
    Best regards,
    Don
    [email protected]

    Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936
    Updated at: www.historywritinsteel.com

  7. #7
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    Another observation about this fascinating rig. The pistol has been rebarrelled using an Imperial-era 9-mm barrel. The original serial number on the barrel was 3617g. This was canceled and repalced with 8595. Also, as Ray observed in the lead post, the top of the chamber has been ground. This was very likely to remove the stamp 7,65. As noted in HWIS, Chapter 17, many of the Alphabet DWMs purchased by the Schupo of Bremen have canceled 7,65 markings on the chamber indicating they were used in this caliber for some time before the pistols were rebarrelled. This one was apparently more extensively reworked and refinished at that time.
    Best regards,
    Don
    [email protected]

    Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936
    Updated at: www.historywritinsteel.com

  8. #8
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    new mexico
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    just getting started in the luger pistol area thats a nice looking one you have

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