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Berlin Police / American Sector - FN 1922

14K views 25 replies 11 participants last post by  Absalom 
#1 · (Edited)
I am given the opportunity of buying an FN Model 1922 bearing post-1948 markings of the American sector, i.e. the revised Berlin Sunburst (or Rosette) with sharp edges above capital letter “A” on right side of frame near SN (as shown in Vanderlinden’s 2009 book, page 255).
Before eventually proceeding with this acquisition, I’d like to have an idea of the number of FN 1922s procured in the American sector. As usual, my compulsive concern is the relative scarcity of the animal...
There is no (clear) indication given by the author about how many were procured (we only know 4671 FN22s were used and marked by the German Railway). Vanderlinden mentions that all FN 1922 pistols (one must assume British and French are also included?) were replaced and sold in 1976-1980. Were they shipped in bulk? Where? At least one has reached Canada...
Besides threads about Bahnpolizei US Zone FN 22 and Soviet sector pistols, I could not find any response to my present query in our forum. Any help (approximation also welcome) would be warmly appreciated. Thank you. -- / Bruno
 
#3 ·
Shupo:
Is that holster correct for an American sector pistol?
Jim
 
#4 ·
SN range

Schupo,
I can’t read the SN of your FN22, what is it? Should it start by 129 or 130, we could hypothesize a short SN range for the American sector (if subject contract included consecutive SNs).
As you may know, pictures by Vanderlinden show 3 “sector” pistols: SN 130532 for A(merican), 140788 for B(ritish), and 129912 A&B (likely for transfer from A sector to B sector). Also mentionned is a “Bahnpolizei U.S. Zone” with SN 134257.
At this point in time, I have no SN info available about the pistol I could buy.
More to follow about this issue from other members, I hope.
Bruno
 
#5 ·
James, I have seen this drop holster sold as both German and Dutch. There were several different styles worn.

Bruno, the Berlin "A" Zone s/n is 130517. I also have a Bahnpolizei US Zone that is s/n 136149.
 
#6 ·
To Schupo and other interested members,
At my request, a friend in Germany found interesting data I would like to share.
-- According to magazine Der Spiegel, up to 11,857 handguns would have been supplied to the West Berlin German Police circa 1951. Of this number, 6090 were new FN Browning (Models 1910 & 1922), 1495 x Smith & Wesson and 2149 x Webleys revolvers, plus 2123 miscellaneous. Additional supplies from 1961 (the Wall was being built) included a supplement of 6000 (unspecified) pistols, plus 10,000 rifles and carbines.
-- In 1948, there were 9,500 police officers employed in the three West Berlin sectors. Considering the American sector was more or less equivalent in sq miles to the combined French and British sectors, this could mean up to 5,000 policemen in the US sector, i.e. 5,000 pistols (but not necessarily all FN 1922s). Of course, this is a rough estimation, but still an interesting one.
Subject reference is submitted for your perusal.
In the text, it is said that the FN pistols were assigned to the French sector (=?)
http://www.bavarianm1carbines.com/Berlin.html
-- Schupo: the FN Model 1922 you presently own was sold by Auction Arms in 2007, wasn’t it? In the above-reference, near the end, you will find a picture of your FN 1922 s/n 130517 ! – Enjoy.
Bruno
 
#8 ·
Bahnpolizei U.S. Zone FN1922s

Hello again,

Considering only Schupo (and james m) replied to this thread, I wonder if this low participation in discussion is due to the fact that - a) there is no real interest in this forum for post-war German Police pistols, or –b) those so-marked pistols are unknown to most forum members. I'd like to know if other "American Sector" FN22s have owners around... (?)

Further to my German friend’s research within European forums and auction sites, several FN 1922 pistols bearing « Bahnpolizei U.S. Zone » (for German Railway) markings on their slide are signaled, when compared to only a few "American Sector" ones.
Here are the SNs of eleven (11) Bahnpolizei, including Schupo’s one and the one presented by Vanderlinden:
133453-133606-133860-133896-134092-134257-135376-135385-136149-136362-137399.

Schupo : Could you post a picture of your 136149 "Bahnpolizei"?

Comments - In his latest book (2009), Vanderlinden reports a total of 4,671 Model 1922s in use in the German Railway. Based on above SNs, it appears more than likely that the « Bahnpolizei U.S. Zone » were produced in a single contract, uninterrupted sequence (likely 133xxx-137xxx). This hypothesis seems supported, when taking into account Vanderlinden on this issue (p.254) :
« Property markings for the railroad police were factory roll engraved, this is in contrast with most of the law enforcement Model 1922 pistols, which were usually stamped in Germany ».

BTW I finally bought the « American Sector » offered for sale. I don't have the full SN but it starts by 128xxx. I’ll post pics upon reception in Nov.
Regards,
Bruno
 
#10 ·
Bruno:
I agree with Ron as I don't think this period has been very well studied at least here in the States. If there are any good reference sources for post war police pistols use in Europe I'm not aware of it.
Jim
 
#11 ·
Bruno,

I tend to agree with Ron that these pistols are largely unknown. Since I collect German Police property marked pistols I am certainly interested in them from the postwar period as well as prewar and the NS Zeit. Below is a photo of my Bahnpolizei FN 1922.
 
#12 · (Edited)
Bruno,

BTW, these Bahnpolizei slide markings appear to be pantographed to me rather than roll stamped. I also have a wartime manufactured CZ27 that is similarly slide marked to the Bavarian City Police by what appears to be the same machine. That being the case I would suspect the possibility that these property markings were not applied at the FN factory but at a police armory.

http://luger.gunboards.com/showthread.php?22940-Bahnpolizei-U.S.-Zone-Marked-FN-1922
 
#13 ·
Schupo : Thank you for posting a « Bahnpolizei U.S. Zone » pistol illustration. And also for linking to a previous thread (2010) I had neglected to check.
Although not a specialist with marking methods (engraving, pantographing, etc.), I would tend to agree with your observation. It would make sense that US or German authorities (especially in postwar era) manage by themselves their weapon requirement.

I wonder why Mr. Vanderlinden is so affirmative when writing subject pistols «were factory roll engraved», also insisting it was «in contrast with» common pratice of law enforcement agencies.
Besides, according to his correspondance with M. Slootweg & A. Giersch, he has established 4671 Model 1922s and 202 Model 1910s were in use by the German Railway in 1971. I’d curious to know if all those pistols had been or not procured in a single contract during the 50’s, and if they were all marked as illustrated.
I understand the author was once a member of this forum, it would be nice if he could substantiate his views and statements, expand on the subject. Hope he will.

Ron and Jim : thanks for casting your vote.
Bruno
 
#15 ·
Joseph,

Thanks for showing your American Occupation Zone pistol. Your holster is interesting too. Is it maker marked or dated? The reason I ask is that I have a 1943 dated one that is very similar in that it does not have a large flat leather belt loop that slides on the two narrow straps like yours. I have seen these FN1922 drop holsters made both ways and I wonder if this was normal or perhaps a postwar modification. My holster shown was manufactured by Gustav Genschow & Co. AG.
 

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#16 ·
I'm not that knowledgeable about post war pistols used by the Berlin Police, and other agencies, in occupied Germany. I picked up a 1922 Browning this summer and the only information I found was in Vanderlinden book. The one pictured came with the regular war time holster. No manufacturer name just Belgium Browning Pistole Cal. 7.65. I Must be suffering from dementia. I have the info and pictures from the other thread shown again.
Joe
 
#17 · (Edited)
Hello friends,

At last, here is my newly acquired West Berlin American Sector German Police FN 1922 : SN 128028







With regard to SN range, and taking into account the few serial numbers mentionned by Vanderlinden, this 128028 appears to be the earliest known so far, and Joseph’s 143436 the latest. In-between, are included all the previously listed « Bahnpolizei U.S. Zone », plus a « B » (for British) Sector (with SN 140788). That represents a gap of 15,000 pistols, but not necessarily all of them being allocated in a row (or single contract) to West Berlin police forces. We’ll see what other SNs may come up in the future. Thank you for taking interest in discussing this issue.

Bruno
 
#18 ·
I realize the thread is old and that interest is limited in cold war relics, but I am pleased to own one of the Berlin American Sector police 1922 Brownings as well. The pictures generally speak for themselves, and I thought those interested may enjoy a look and another serial number accounted for. This one obviously saw very limited use and got into the country prior to import mark requirements. The holster came with it, and it has no markings that I can see and seems age appropriate. I was compelled to make the purchase on condition alone, but the markings were also a very positive factor. Here are some pictures, please enjoy and feel free to comment:

 
#19 ·
Welcome to the forum and thanks for your post. You will notice that my black holster, in the first section, is identical to yours. I frankly don't know what the story on these holsters is but I find it interesting that both styles under discussion are drop holsters.

A very nice example!
 
#25 ·
Welcome to the forum and thanks for your post. You will notice that my black holster, in the first section, is identical to yours. I frankly don't know what the story on these holsters is but I find it interesting that both styles under discussion are drop holsters.

A very nice example!
Belgian police holsters and also sold by FN. The reason these show up with so many contracts is that these holsters were surplussed and sold here for peanuts. There were so many, they could not give them away. I remember new unissued ones selling for $15, so many dealers just married them with any Model 1922s.

Anthony
 
#20 ·
Thanks for resurfacing an old thread with a nice new example. Haven't read these posts before. Yours does look like a nice example. I have a luger from the soviet zone I picked up a couple of months ago with a navy size barrel. It's been refinished over some pitting, but it's a great shooter.
 
#26 ·
The Berlin police holsters for the FN 1922 were mostly manufactured by Wunderlich and Larsen, both in Berlin, although various other repurposed holsters have been documented, likely from the early days.
These were first worn on the duty belt old-style and later either modified or newly made with the two rings for the Schultertragevorrichtung (under-tunic shoulder strap contraption).

642331
 
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