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Roth Steyr M1907 fails to eject/feed

7K views 28 replies 9 participants last post by  jetmek 
#1 ·
My son's Roth Steyr fires perfectly but will not eject the old round and of course not feed a new round. I've stripped, cleaned and lubed the gun 2-3 times. Nothing helps. I've examined the recoil spring. It seems fine although I can't be certain without knowing the original spec. I've searched this forum and the internet. I have found various threads that blame weak Fiocchi ammo contained in grey boxes. The recommendation is to find purple boxes. That seems to be impossible. There were a couple of recommendations for parts suppliers in Europe. CDS Ehrenreich GmbH in particular had the Schliessfeder (recoil spring) but they do not ship to the USA. My wife is from Hungary and if all else fails I could have it sent to my sister in law and have her ship. But I'm not even certain that is the problem.

Does anyone have any recommendations? It would be easy to believe weak Fiocchi ammo is the problem but it also would be a hard fix to find other ammo. Does anyone know of an alternate supplier of 8mm Roth ammo?

Thanks for your help.
 
#2 ·
Do you have reloading table ?
Somebody on the forum perhaps , so desasemble the ammo and reload them .
About the Schliessfeder (recoil spring) , a german member can send it to you ....
 
#3 ·
Thank you for the suggestion. I had thought of reloading but unfortunately I have neither reloading equipment nor reloading experience. Of course the concept of reloading seems simple enough but could be expensive for just the one size cartridge. It may end up being my only recourse though.

By the way I lived in Grenoble France for several years. Lovely country.
 
#5 · (Edited)
Hello David - sorry to hear about your Roth-Steyr problems (but you got a keeper with that Hungarian wife!:))
Anyhow, here is some chronograph data compliments of my brother (the gunsmith/reloader of the family):



The black box on the bottom is some of the latest stuff we have been getting from Graf & Sons (www.grafs.com). They run a decent deal at $30/box on occasion - keep checking their site. By the way, the box data hypes a 1070 fps velocity and we could not reach it, even trying different powder orientations (powder forward or powder to the rear, to the rear should give greatest velocity).

The data on the "Grey" vs. "Purple" boxes is kinda confusing. Personally I have seen two of what I would call Grey boxes (2nd and 3rd from top of my attached pic above). But it is pretty obvious from my brother's result the one with the brownish square in the center (3rd down from top) is the one to stay away from. Although, we have fired all of these vintages in two separate guns with no problems. Maybe some data on spring measurements might be in order.

Anyhow, I think this following pic is of the Purple box, which we do not have any of to test. Maybe someday we will run across some and see.


Hope this is helpful to you and good luck with that Roth-Steyr! Got any pictures of it to share - is it Steyr or Budapest manufacture, any unit ID on the grip disc, etc?
Regards - Jeff

Ps - Ouch! Just went to Graf & Sons site and the picture they show being offered today is not the black "Classic Loads" box we just got recently - they seem to be back to offering this grey box with the brown square in the center. That could make things confusing going forward - if they have fresh loads, achieving decent velocities going into old style boxes that folks have heard to stay away from!
 
#6 ·
Jeff
Thanks for taking the time to send me the chronograph data. I think the delta in fps may support the other links citing the weak grey box ammo as being a factor in the failure to eject. A very kind member has offered to sell me two boxes of purple boxed ammo and we shall soon see if that cures the problem.

My son's Roth Steyr was manufactured in Budapest and the serial numbers indicate 1912 as the manufacture date. Unfortunately there are no identifying marks on the disk. I'll take some pictures when I get a moment and post them.

I see you screen name is MadMagyar. Do you also have a Hungarian connection? My wife is from Hungary. We keep a house and lands in Jász-Nagykun-Szolnok county which is about 120 kilometers east of Budapest. My son and daughter are both perfectly bi-lingual. Because of his Hungarian heritage my son (16) has a fascination with the Central Powers and the Axis military. He has several museum quality pieces ranging from firearms (Roth Steyr, Steyr Hahn, Femaru, Mannlicher M1895, 2 Lugers, K98, G43, P38, etc) to uniforms, helmets, to flags to newspapers, magazines, postcards, medals, coins,. I'm very proud of his knowledge (if only he would apply those smarts to math and chemistry:)). Enough about him.

Thanks to everyone for their help. I hope the "purple" solves the problem. If not I'll try to procure a new recoil spring.

David
 
#7 · (Edited)
Hope that purple box works for you! Maybe you have access and can chronograph a few rounds.
Anyhow, my Roth-Steyr is also 1912 Budapest #14695, with unit I.D. 20.R.6.
And my Hungarian connection is somewhat distant - all 4 grandparents came over in late 1800's-early 1900's (so both my parents were 100% and spoke the language at home - that's where it stopped, sadly).
I decided to get my Roth-Steyr out and measure the spring - just to give a little more helpful detail. It is 6 1/16" (154mm) long at rest with 37 coils (that includes both the beginning and ending ones). (The pic looks like 6 1/8" length only because of camera angle)

PM coming at you for additional collection discussion.
Jeff
 
#9 ·
Does anyone have any ammo in the purple boxes that they would consider selling. It turns out the member who offered to sell me a couple of boxes of purple didn't in fact have any. I'd really like to try the ammo alternative before trying to procure another spring from Europe. I have tried a few US sites without success.
 
#10 ·
Apologies for the delayed update. I had to wait until my son returned from Europe with a spring set. (the supplier in Germany would not ship outside the European Union and fortunately we have a summer house in Hungary). In any event all springs replaced and the gun still fails to eject. So all new springs, purple boxed ammo so I guess I have the problem I feared all along. Something defective with the ejector. I suspected that all along because it doesn't seem to be grabbing the case at all. Problem is/are 1) where the heck do you get an ejector for a 110 year old gun and 2) I cannot find anything on removing, replacing or repairing the ejector. It isn't self evident from examining the gun. Does anyone here have any idea?
 
#11 ·
The "extractor" would be the part that "grabs" the case, the ejector is another part that "kicks" it out.

I don't know how it is made, but it may have a spring that gives it tension, which could be replaced; if a bar spring itself, it would have to be found or made.

You don't mention if it will load and eject ammo when cycled by hand, will it?
 
#12 ·
Did the empty case coming out of chamber after firing? If not, it's a headspace issue, or cartridge does not match chamber. If it comes out, you should try to push the empty case back into chamber manually. On healthy gun, that should be as easy as loading a new cartridge into chamber. If empty case cannot be pushed back, there is still an ammo/chamber matching issue.
 
#13 ·
I would think that a broken or worn extractor would appear obvious - I have attached a couple pics of my (dirty) M.07 from different perspectives to give you a point of reference. I wouldn't envy looking for or replacing this part - but I do envy a summer house in Hungary - :rolleyes:!



By the way, how did the new spring compare to the original, dimensionally and physically, regardless not being the problem - always looking for more comparative data on these guns.
Good luck - Jeff
 
#14 ·
not sure where you may find an ejector however I would be most interested in obtaining a firing pin spring and firing pin for a 1907 Roth Steyr. I purchased one several years ago and have been looking for those parts since then. Even dimensions of the spring and firing pin would be most helpful in working with a gunsmith to manufacture one,
 
#15 ·
Again apologies for another delay. Been traveling to and from Europe and to and from NY. Never seems to be any time for the forum. You are correct, I was playing loose with words. The extractor appears to be "grabbing" the case. It isn't broken. Actually appears cleaner than your extractor MadMagyar. The case will come back part way from the breech but the ejector doesn't seem to kick it out. So it sits there as another round is fed and jams. I'm not sure. Does it have an actual ejector or does it depend on the mag feed to kick it out?
 
#18 ·
My son and I are working on it this very minute. It cycles perfectly by hand. What you state MadMagyar is the only conclusion we can come to. But we tried the ammo from a purple box, the supposedly more powerful round, and it didn't cycle any better than the grey box. I wonder if using spring tension would help. Although I just replaced the Schliessfeder (closing spring) and the Zubringerfeder (mag spring) which were the only springs I could get. I thought the new closing spring would solve the problem, and in the event the mag spring was pushing the next round too quickly I figured it couldn't hurt to replace that. Firing spring wouldn't affect the situation and it fires fine anyway. The only other spring is the release spring which pushes on the trigger and uncoupler. I am at a loss unless it is a light load situation. And if it is a light load situation I am still at a loss because I don't reload and neither the purple boxed nor the grey boxed ammo cycles. Does anyone on this site reload the 8mm Steyr? I found this discussion on another site and may try to contact the poster.
http://steyrmannlicher.yuku.com/topic/9123#.V9RaA5grK00
 
#20 ·
I'm not in a position at this moment to disassemble the gun so I can't count the spring coils. When I changed out the old for the new I did measure (but not count the coils) the old against the new. The old mag spring was marginally longer, perhaps 1/4 to 5/16 longer. The old closing spring (recoil) was marginally shorter than the new, perhaps 3/16 to 1/4. Again I didn't count the coils but I would think the new would have the requisite number of coils. I can disassemble and count when I get time if you think it matters.
 
#21 ·
I didn't think the purchased springs for these were "new" - thought they were from parted-out guns (new to the buyer maybe). So, was the new recoil spring "flat" coil or round wire coil? The original springs were flat coil. Measurements at some point and coil count just helps define the situation in more detail. I really wish other members would supply some spring data to see what the general population looks like. It cycles by hand - at least that means the extractor isn't bad! I know the ammo I shoot, works my gun - it would be good to see if it functioned in yours.
 
#22 ·
Which ammo are you using? The springs were advertised as new. I bought them from a german company and as penalties for false advertising in Germany are pretty strict I assume they are new. Everything other than marginally longer was identical. Flat coil diameter etc The conclusion I keep arriving at is load too light to cycle completely. But I guess I will have to take it to a gunsmith who will charge me a fortune to say he's never seen anything like a Roth Steyr and he makes no guarantees he can fix.
 
#23 ·
Access to my "fun-gun" ammo isn't so easy - I will get around to checking later this week and submit pics.
In the meantime, you might want to contact Wolff Gunsprings and talk with a Tech Rep, explain the gun model and possibly might have to give them some dimensions and coil count and they may have a cheap round wire alternative (I order Mauser 1910/1934, 6.35mm, recoil springs to satisfy my Frommer STOPs) - then you can play with it by starting with the as-received length and then removing a coil at a time until you find the operational sweet spot. Save the original spring for posterity but use the cheap modified alternative for shooting enjoyment purposes. I would do this before paying high dollar to a smith that may not even understand what you have - but that's me. Be safe. Jeff
 
#24 ·
Thanks for the advice about contacting Wolff. Actually I contacted Wolff back in April before going to the trouble of ordering from Germany. They didn't have any Roth parts but your idea of seeing if they can supply a spring by spec is a good idea. I will give them a call. Also on the spring idea two other options:1) I can experiment (remove a coil or two) from the old spring that was in the Roth before I replaced with the new or 2) I can experiment with a mixed bag of springs I ordered from Numrichs. Very cheap. Mixed bag of about 30 springs. No control over what you get. Just got them in.

Please do let me know what you find out about the ammo.
 
#27 ·
same issue

Just came across this old post looking for something else. I have the same issue of not ejecting or feeding. First time I just wanted to shoot it to check for function, thought maybe just needed a good cleaning and checking for dried oil or burrs.
Went back after doing a thorough check, brought my chronograph along this time, Fiocchi box states 1070 fps, the best I had was 799 fps with most in the 750 fps range. This is fairly recent ammo, bought about 6 months ago.
So most likely a very mild lawyer proof load for these older guns. For the non reloaders best to be glad there is ammo available for these fine old guns. Hope information helps someone with same issue.
Now I just have to cycle my round by hand to get brass for reloading. Still fun to shoot.
lastditch
 

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#28 ·
Be carefull with amo for old guns make from fiocchi , for french revolver 1892 , some bullet rest in barrel when fire , not enought powder !!
 
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