Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 18

Thread: Two Suhl proofed re-barreled L P08 pistols with Death Head marking

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    5,643

    Question Two Suhl proofed re-barreled L P08 pistols with Death Head marking

    I placed this thread here as it seemed at least partially correct for Imperial lugers with post WWI markings.

    In preparation, I spent the last 3 hours or so reading most all of the old posts on this and the other luger forum. I must admit my head is swimming a little and I'm more than a little frustrated because probably 80% of the pictures referenced in the posts are GONE. So please now and in future, if you take the time and trouble to post to a thread or start one- please, please!- put the pictures on the server here.
    Rant over!

    Thanks to Pete for documenting so many pictures of the Death Head (DH for short) chamber marking.
    They can be found here:
    https://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...ght=death+head

    Now to the story at hand. I have been interested, as are many of us, in these "marked" luger pistols.
    Theories run from "all are fakes" , to "some are real, but one can't tell the difference", and from "must be Freikorps" to "can only be early SS". Confusing for sure.

    Up until now, I have been convinced(in my own opinion) that Freikorps could be the only logical connection; however, now I'm not so sure- thinking these may post-date the days of the Freikorps; but not ready to accept that they can only be "SS".

    This post is to encourage respectful discussion and hopefully have others post pertinent info and detailed pictures of the areas of commonality or difference in their examples.

    Please no "rifle guys have determined the truth" vs. "pistol idiots don't know how to do research" type discussion; lets stick to the examples themselves and any documented info that you may have.

    If someone wants to post pictures of similar Death Heads on rifles please do; as many of us do not collect these rifles.

    I had the opportunity to examine and question/discuss the 1917 DWM shown here on Thursday night at SOS. Imagine my surprise when on Friday at SOS, if found its "twin"- a 1915 dated example. The 1915 had so many characteristics in common with the 1917 , I decided to take the plunge and buy it; in spite of being sure the chances were only 50/50 it was "good" or original(if they exist)! So I paid too much by 1/3 for a fake 1915, or a reasonable price for a DH- if it is good.

    Why- being a history nut, I just had too- take a chance that is.

    I will present the pictures here and list the commonalities I see and also the "differences".

    Comonalities:
    1-Imperial dated lugers
    2-Suhl commercial proofs of the post WWI to 1939 type, noted on barrel, breech block, middle link, and right chamber
    3-Replaced barrels, with only 8,8mm guage marking and the crown/N proof
    4-These two are re-barreled Artillery pistols or L P08s
    5-DH in same orientation and size on chamber top

    Differences:
    1-DH are different, they look similar but under magnification are significantly different.
    one appears stamped, the other pantographed and/or engraved.

    P1320431 (2).jpgP1320434 (9).jpg1915 DH.JPGP1320434 (4).jpgP1320442 (2).jpgP1320439.JPGP1320439 (4).jpgP1320435.jpgP1320434 (5).jpgP1320434 (2).jpg1917 DH.jpg
    03man - Don Voigt
    Luger student and collector
    Looking for DWM mil.side plates- 69 and commercial # 32, Dreyse "K.S.Gendarmerie"

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    , CA, USA.
    Posts
    2,581

    Default

    A friend of mine has a DH which I believe is real one of the things that helped convince me was he got it from a private collection back in the early sixties. Which I think was before the wide spread fakes that started flooding the market. The history of these two DH's posted here ( whose hands and collections or auction houses) they passed through if known would be interesting. BTW my friends DH was stamped.
    Dow Cross

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    5,643

    Default

    Dow,
    neither of these passed through an auction house or big dealer- to my knowledge.
    I'll let the owner of the 1917 share his story if he wants too.
    I bought the 1915 from a collector last week and have asked him by letter for any back story- but I really don't expect to get any.

    Thanks for your post; any chance to get info and pictures of your friends DH?
    03man - Don Voigt
    Luger student and collector
    Looking for DWM mil.side plates- 69 and commercial # 32, Dreyse "K.S.Gendarmerie"

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    , CA, USA.
    Posts
    2,581

    Default

    I do have pics from ten years ago and will have to find them my friend died of cancer 7 years ago and his wife sold everything he had.
    Dow Cross

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    North of Spokane, WA
    Posts
    12,996

    Default

    My feeling is that on lugers they are freikorp - but that is because I am influenced by a couple of collectors. The SS connection seems to be faked so much that it keeps me from believing it - so many folks want an SS connection.
    I have owned one deathshead, but it was poorly done, so did not think it was freikorp

    The K98 folks, they tend to believe real ones are SS - and I think SS runes are accepted by them too, but I am going by memory on that.

    Ed

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Virginia, USA.
    Posts
    6,054

    Default

    The Suhl proofs lead me to one of two conclusions; they are either SS related or fake.
    " 'To everything there is a season...a time for war and a time for peace'. and this is the time for war". Reverend Peter Muhlenberg, January 21, 1776, Woodstock, Virginia

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Virginia, USA.
    Posts
    6,054

    Default

    Here's another that recently sold in Germany.

    http://www.hermann-historica-archiv....db=kat58_s.txt
    " 'To everything there is a season...a time for war and a time for peace'. and this is the time for war". Reverend Peter Muhlenberg, January 21, 1776, Woodstock, Virginia

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    5,643

    Default

    Thanks George.
    That 1918 sure has the same basic characteristics of these other two; i.e. Suhl proofs and C/N barrel with only 8.8mm.

    The DH is similar to that on the 1915 and obvious(to me) aged/pitted the same as the date and finish of the chamber area; so not likely a recent fake, JMHO.

    I tried to grab the picture, but couldn't with my limited online and computer skills. maybe someone else can to document it.
    Interesting it sold for 1500 euro in 2009.
    03man - Don Voigt
    Luger student and collector
    Looking for DWM mil.side plates- 69 and commercial # 32, Dreyse "K.S.Gendarmerie"

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    128

    Default

    HH-DH-Luger.jpg
    Attached Images Attached Images

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    5,643

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by rlatham View Post
    rl,
    thanks for grabbing these pictures. Now we have the Herman Historica 1918 shown. Here is their description:
    A Pistol 08 DWM 1918 "Totenkopf" (Death's Head Luger), Freikorps (volunteer corps),
    cal. 9 mm Parabellum, no. 501g. Matching numbers except for trigger and firing pin. Matt bore. Imperial acceptance marks, proof-marked crown/"N". Receiver marked "1918", before this lying S ("lazy S") with death's head underneath. Original finish with wear marks, partially more spotted. Small parts strawed, spotted. Stronger numberless walnut grip panels like the Pistol 08/Erfurt. Specific features: Barrel without serial number, merely proof-marked crown/"N", stamped below: "8,8 m/m". Trigger plate replaced and without number. Firing pin spring improvised with firing pin spring guide, exchangeable. Post-war magazine, exchangeable.
    The here offered Luger with its original death's head stamp can in all probability be attributed to volunteer corps who wore the death's head as a symbol on vehicles, helmets and uniforms. They also stamped it onto pistols and rifles reconditioned in arsenals. This also makes sense regarding the post-war proof-marks crown/"N". Extremely rare collector's item in good condition which can be upgraded by replacing the non-original small parts and careful cleaning of the weapon. Cf. Still, Weimar and Early Nazi Lugers, pp. 197 ff. as well as Kenyon, Lugers at Random, pp. 232 f. and Costanzo, World of Lugers.
    Erwerbsscheinpflichtig.

    Condition: II Limit: 1000 EURO
    1500 EURO
    03man - Don Voigt
    Luger student and collector
    Looking for DWM mil.side plates- 69 and commercial # 32, Dreyse "K.S.Gendarmerie"

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •